JV talks, sort of

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Jun 18, 2009
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badboygolf16v said:
I am still really interested to know how many other Garmin riders went to see Del Moral in 2009. JV never cleared that one up to my satisfaction.
I want to know these things too.

I also want to know why he continues to feign ignorance of a visit to del Moral that his team paid for and his 2IC arranged. It's a scandal that he is painted as a saint, and the hapless rider is treated like a leper.
 
Le breton said:
I don't know about Vinokourov in 1999. Maybe he was clean then.
I wouldn't bet 1 cent on any of the others except for Moncoutié.
I have no idea about Vaughters being clean or not in '99, but by that metric, even Moncoutie's time of about 58:30 would still be amazing.

I can believe that improvements in equipment and legitimate sports science could have brought a couple percent decrease in climbing times on Ventoux in the 20 years between Herrera and Vaughters.
 
spalco said:
I have no idea about Vaughters being clean or not in '99, but by that metric, even Moncoutie's time of about 58:30 would still be amazing.

I can believe that improvements in equipment and legitimate sports science could have brought a couple percent decrease in climbing times on Ventoux in the 20 years between Herrera and Vaughters.
By all accounts, Moncoutié is an immense talent. Due to the era he's competed at, it's hard to gauge the true extent of his talent, but we might well be talking of a potential Tour winner in the 80s.
 
Jul 8, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Because none climbers aren't hitting those numbers nowadays cycling is clean? Stupid retorics by mister Vaughters.

When u repeat a message often enough, people will eventually believe u. Very old mind control trick.
I think it is pretty fair to say that with a performace decrease of 10% - 20% cycling is much, much cleaner than it was in the late 90s.

I really dont understand how that can be denied. 100% clean sports will never happen, so no point in my opinion of describing a failure to reach that as a failure.
 
May 26, 2010
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Sigmund said:
I think it is pretty fair to say that with a performace decrease of 10% - 20% cycling is much, much cleaner than it was in the late 90s.

I really dont understand how that can be denied. 100% clean sports will never happen, so no point in my opinion of describing a failure to reach that as a failure.
It is not hard for hard for cycling to be cleaner that the '90 - '05 and still be a dirty sport.
 
Sigmund said:
I think it is pretty fair to say that with a performace decrease of 10% - 20% cycling is much, much cleaner than it was in the late 90s.

I really dont understand how that can be denied. 100% clean sports will never happen, so no point in my opinion of describing a failure to reach that as a failure.
I suppose it depends how you define "cleaner". Safer, almost certainly. All we really know is that oxygen vector doping is capped - we don't really know what proportion of the pro peloton is doping. If it's 95% would that make cycling cleaner ? On the other hand if it's 5% then those 5% have a big advantage. Apparently it's all about "marginal gains" but I don't think anybody is in any doubt what the biggest marginal gain (still) is
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Sigmund said:
I think it is pretty fair to say that with a performace decrease of 10% - 20% cycling is much, much cleaner than it was in the late 90s.

I really dont understand how that can be denied. 100% clean sports will never happen, so no point in my opinion of describing a failure to reach that as a failure.
'Cleaner' is imho not 'clean'.

Furthermore I see enough in the peloton to be sure it is far from clean. So mister Vaughters shouldn't make such statements.

Cycling is still a doping rat race, them against the doping searchers. Maybe the Giro was cleaner, with no big surprises, the Tour as hell was not.

Vuelta is gonna be fun though :rolleyes:
 
Aug 18, 2009
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I suppose the bio-passport sets tighter boundaries to work within than the 50% rule, but people still do all they can within that framework. FWIW.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Le breton said:
1958 : Gaul wins the TT in 1:02:09, does not stop on the finish line (at about 1895 m, not 1909m as often stated) and immediately takes refuge in a camping car or whatever where nobody could see him.
So, to me his performance seems fraudulent.
Probability that he doped is around 100% I would say but then again probably so did most of the others. He was also just an amazing climber and a great ITT'ist. But the camping car anecdote seems - especially for Gaul - little evidence. The guy was just really weird and didn't really get along with anyone. After his career, he lived completely isolated in the woods for some time.

Also I recently read somewhere that the secret of his success was that he ate 1 kg (sic) of sugar cubes per day :D
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Do people really think JV invented the entire clean team stuff and is actually running a doping program? I see zero evidence to support that. None
 
Jul 3, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Do people really think JV invented the entire clean team stuff and is actually running a doping program? I see zero evidence to support that. None
1) I doubt JV runs a doping program

2) That is not to say riders on his team definitely aren't doping

3) That JV hopes his riders are clean =/= them actually being clean.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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A good indicator of the direction the sport is going is Marco Pinotti. Top 5 at the Olympic TT.

While it is nice to see his success how many races would he have won over the last 10 years if the sport was clean?
 
Race Radio said:
A good indicator of the direction the sport is going is Marco Pinotti. Top 5 at the Olympic TT.

While it is nice to see his success how many races would he have won over the last 10 years if the sport was clean?
You don't think the sport has taken another turn for the worse in 2011-2012? Less controls, important people leaving the biopassport program, French cycling getting increasingly tainted, several uphill records, extraterrestrial performances by a handful of riders from specific teams...
 
Apr 17, 2009
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Race Radio said:
A good indicator of the direction the sport is going is Marco Pinotti. Top 5 at the Olympic TT.

While it is nice to see his success how many races would he have won over the last 10 years if the sport was clean?
Boardman came third in Atlanta '96 ITT.
 
May 12, 2010
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hrotha said:
You don't think the sport has taken another turn for the worse in 2011-2012? Less controls, important people leaving the biopassport program, French cycling getting increasingly tainted, several uphill records, extraterrestrial performances by a handful of riders from specific teams...
It does look like the progress we made the last couple of years has stalled, or maybe even turned back. Wiggins and Froome were barely slower on La Toussuire en the Peyresourde than they were in 2006/2007, years were doping was still huge (with his excelent time-trial, it could easily be argued that Wiggins' shape this year was good enough to beat 2006 Landis and 2007 Rasmussen).
 
Mar 4, 2010
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My team from 2000-retirement was credt agricole. Management was absolutely anti-doping. I hated letting them down when I couldn't win.

@danmaize No.The team was clear:No doping. But we were barely getting into the big races and needed results. I knew how to get that done..

@danmaize So, choice was: Go back to something I'd walked away from and lie, or disappoint Roger, who I really liked. Disappoint either way

@danmaize When I speak out against the points system, theres a reason: I know the internal consequences of a points system gone wrong.
 
May 27, 2010
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Ferminal said:
1) I doubt JV runs a doping program

2) That is not to say riders on his team definitely aren't doping

3) That JV hopes his riders are clean =/= them actually being clean.
^This.

Dave.
 
Not really. Not without more context and a few more details.

I suppose we do have Legeay to thank for Slipstream as Vaughters seemed to only grow a conscience after accepting a contract that he didn't really deserve.
 
roundabout said:
Not really. Not without more context and a few more details.

I suppose we do have Legeay to thank for Slipstream as Vaughters seemed to only grow a conscience after accepting a contract that he didn't really deserve.
Judging from that AIM convo with Andreu, JV believed all teams worked like US Postal.
 
While it's understandable, it's a bit of an easy position to take.

Although I suppose it cuts both ways as Legeay thought that he was buying a genuine article judging by the alleged contract.

And as a bit of an anecdote, being the idiot that I am way back in 1999 I did think that Vaughters would get a big result in the TdF.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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BroDeal said:
He invites discussion on Twitter about the role doping played in his retirement.

Jonathan VaughtersVerified ‏@Vaughters
I wonder if anyone is curious as to why I quit racing at 29, and walked away from the last 2 yrs of a pretty phat contract? Must be crazy..
To answer JVs question - yes, I think a lot of people do and in particular the context and what has happened after with Garmin.
Most here already know - but I think it would educate a wider audience.

Strange that he has missed opportunities to address the matter before and then goes on twitter, invites questions and gives very frank answers.
Hopefully something has changed.
spalco said:
Not to interpret too much into a tweet, but the bolded part says a lot, doesn't it?
He actually goes further in this exchange:
From: peter van der Veen ‏@petervdveen
To; @Vaughters OK that's a weird sentence sounds like you where taking dope to win before that. :\
JVs Reply: @petervdveen Uh...yeah.
 

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