JV talks, sort of

[Benotti69]

How could JV's testing have given a heads up on JTL? They only caught him by comparing blood values over a larger time scale than JV had access to. Specifically comparing his blood pre Sky to his values after he joined sky.

I never did understand the insinuation that either Sky or Garmin should somehow have spotted this, when it was the difference from doped levels pre sky to presumably non/less/differently doped values post sky that nailed him.

Or at least, that's my best guess based on everything we've seen thus far.

JTL was suspicious based on his wins from nowhere. The clinic called him out on it. JV has a lot more insider info and contact into riders than we have. I guess JV knew what he was hoping to sign and with his teams 'workings' JTL would make an impact for Garmin.

All IMO.

 

[WinterRider]

JTL was suspicious based on his wins from nowhere. The clinic called him out on it. JV has a lot more insider info and contact into riders than we have. I guess JV knew what he was hoping to sign and with his teams 'workings' JTL would make an impact for Garmin.

All IMO.

But that doesn't explain how JV could have found the smoking gun doping wise, when it is a passport violation that purportedly relies on differences in blood values pre and post his start at Sky.

JV likely was hoping he was a diamond in the rough, and willing to take the chance absent any proof. It is cycling after all, where is one supposed to find the 100% for sure clean athletes?

 

[Benotti69]

But that doesn't explain how JV could have found the smoking gun doping wise, when it is a passport violation that purportedly relies on differences in blood values pre and post his start at Sky.

It appears to be extremely difficult for anyone to find a smoking gun in a room where everyone is holding a gun that is smoking, but all denying the smoke coming out of their gun is dirty.

There is no smoking gun unless a rider admits it, is caught or another rider outs a rider, like Rasmussen did to Hesjedal.

JV wanted Contador at one point.

JV likely was hoping he was a diamond in the rough, and willing to take the chance absent any proof. It is cycling after all, where is one supposed to find the 100% for sure clean athletes?

JV was hoping for that. Bet he is glad JTL is Sky's problem.

There is no surety for 100% clean athletes.

 

[pmcg76]

I think Garmin is selling stability. JV's early comments comparing Slipstream to the Chicago Cubs illustrate the strategy.

A big dominant team like T-Mobile, USPS, Sky model are going to be feast/famine. A couple years of dominance, and then the whole thing collapses. JV wants to be there year in and year out. The Cubs don't win much, but Wrigley is always full and they always make money. He sells, dependable visibility, competitiveness and no scandals.

Whether or not this translates to "clean" cycling is up for debate (obviously).

US Postal/Discovery were in the sport for 10 years. T-Mobile were in it for 16 stretching all the way back to the Telekom days which began in 1991. They hardly all flamed brightly and then dissappeared.

So Garmin are keeping the doping to a certain level so the next logical question is if they are keeping it within reason, how are they even capable of winning the Giro plus Monuments. That would surely suggest there are a lot more team's that are on limited doping

 

[Samson777]

US Postal/Discovery were in the sport for 10 years. T-Mobile were in it for 16 stretching all the way back to the Telekom days which began in 1991. They hardly all flamed brightly and then dissappeared.

So Garmin are keeping the doping to a certain level so the next logical question is if they are keeping it within reason, how are they even capable of winning the Giro plus Monuments. That would surely suggest there are a lot more team's that are on limited doping

But Telekom was not hardly a Super dominant until 96 came around. Anyway, it does still not mean that they faded away quickly after the success.

But I agree with the one's naming Hesjedals Giro win. If that was limited doping, I can't wait for Garmin going all in.

 

[martinvickers]

JTL was suspicious based on his wins from nowhere. The clinic called him out on it. JV has a lot more insider info and contact into riders than we have. I guess JV knew what he was hoping to sign and with his teams 'workings' JTL would make an impact for Garmin.

All IMO.

The Clinic call everybody out, that's meaningless.

And let's be clear - Garmin don't have ZTP - their policy has always been 'clean while here' and help the authorities when asked. Even if he had his doubts re JTL's past, was JV, on that policy not entitled to check him out for talent?

The blanket assumption of bad faith isn't just unreasonable, it's boring.

 

[SaxonUK]

JTL was suspicious based on his wins from nowhere. The clinic called him out on it. JV has a lot more insider info and contact into riders than we have. I guess JV knew what he was hoping to sign and with his teams 'workings' JTL would make an impact for Garmin.

All IMO.

But JTL isn't confirmed to be a doper is he? I thought he was awaiting a hearing based on one of his blood tests.

 

[sniper]

But JTL isn't confirmed to be a doper is he? I thought he was awaiting a hearing based on one of his blood tests.

even walsh thinks he's a doper.

 

[sniper]

So Garmin are keeping the doping to a certain level so the next logical question is if they are keeping it within reason, how are they even capable of winning the Giro plus Monuments. That would surely suggest there are a lot more team's that are on limited doping

"doping to a certain level" = blooddoping to a certain level.
the passport helps you blooddope to certain limit with the guarantee of not getting caught for it.
what the riders take in addition, we have no clue.

 

[manafana]

I think Garmin is selling stability. JV's early comments comparing Slipstream to the Chicago Cubs illustrate the strategy.

A big dominant team like T-Mobile, USPS, Sky model are going to be feast/famine. A couple years of dominance, and then the whole thing collapses. JV wants to be there year in and year out. The Cubs don't win much, but Wrigley is always full and they always make money. He sells, dependable visibility, competitiveness and no scandals.

Whether or not this translates to "clean" cycling is up for debate (obviously).

thats a pretty well put point, probably how id describe garmin, most of the teams are pushing the limits, it would suprise me if garmin were using xenon since its legal and JV is in the know on all these sort of things

 

[sniper]

I think Garmin is selling stability. JV's early comments comparing Slipstream to the Chicago Cubs illustrate the strategy.

A big dominant team like T-Mobile, USPS, Sky model are going to be feast/famine. A couple years of dominance, and then the whole thing collapses. JV wants to be there year in and year out. The Cubs don't win much, but Wrigley is always full and they always make money. He sells, dependable visibility, competitiveness and no scandals.

Whether or not this translates to "clean" cycling is up for debate (obviously).

yes, well put indeed.
it reminds me of the rabobank model.
but even rabobank underestimated the vicissitudes of cycling.
similarly, if hesjedals doping comes out, garmin will be in trouble.

(interesting how his doping in the 2000s is no longer a topic at the moment.)

 

[Benotti69]

MV's attack the man not the post as per usual!


And let's be clear - Garmin don't have ZTP - their policy has always been 'clean while here' and help the authorities when asked. Even if he had his doubts re JTL's past, was JV, on that policy not entitled to check him out for talent?

I never stated Garmin have stated a ZTP. Their policy is they are a clean team. I dont believe it. JV doesn't have any problems with dopers, him being one and half the team being known dopers. So hiring JTL was not a problem for JV neither was going after Contador.

The blanket assumption of bad faith isn't just unreasonable, it's boring.

Woke you enough to reply with abuse.

I base my opinion on whether anti doping works and performance, coupled with the history of the sport i feel it is reasonable to assume that nothing has changed to a level where teams compete cleanly at the highest level, IMO.

We know that when races don't have anti doping testing riders grow wings, á la Horner/Bottle ToC.

 

[martinvickers]

I never stated Garmin have stated a ZTP. Their policy is they are a clean team. I dont believe it. JV doesn't have any problems with dopers, him being one and half the team being known dopers. So hiring JTL was not a problem for JV neither was going after Contador.



Woke you enough to reply with abuse.

I base my opinion on whether anti doping works and performance, coupled with the history of the sport i feel it is reasonable to assume that nothing has changed to a level where teams compete cleanly at the highest level, IMO.

We know that when races don't have anti doping testing riders grow wings, á la Horner/Bottle ToC.

Benotti, I don't know if you are a native english speaker or not, but you NEED to go an learn about the 'Generic you'. there was NO personal abuse in my post. you simply, again, misunderstood it.

As for the rest, I'm not really interested in what you think, or believe, or feel. That's not worth a bean. i'm interested in what you can evidence and prove.

 

[SaxonUK]

yes, well put indeed.
it reminds me of the rabobank model.
but even rabobank underestimated the vicissitudes of cycling.
similarly, if hesjedals doping comes out, garmin will be in trouble.

(interesting how his doping in the 2000s is no longer a topic at the moment.)

I think a doping scandal would hurt Garmin more than other teams, if you stand on a pedestal of No Doping then the fall when you get caught doping is going to be so much further.

 

[the sceptic]

Benotti, I don't know if you are a native english speaker or not, but you NEED to go an learn about the 'Generic you'. there was NO personal abuse in my post. you simply, again, misunderstood it.

As for the rest, I'm not really interested in what you think, or believe, or feel. That's not worth a bean. i'm interested in what you can evidence and prove.

Martin. Could you please cut out the personal attacks? If you cant stop I will have no choice but to report you to the mods.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I think a doping scandal would hurt Garmin more than other teams, if you stand on a pedestal of No Doping then the fall when you get caught doping is going to be so much further.

Not so sure. Say Hesjedal got popped, will that make a difference?

 

[martinvickers]

Martin. Could you please cut out the personal attacks? If you cant stop I will have no choice but to report you to the mods.

Report away. There's no personal attack in my post, as I've already shown. But we all know your motiveson this, so fire ahead,

 

[the sceptic]

Report away. There's no personal attack in my post, as I've already shown. But we all know your motiveson this, so fire ahead,

Saying his thoughts and feelings are worthless is a personal attack, Martin.

Maybe you should slow down and not make so many attacks that you cant even keep up.

 

[SaxonUK]

Not so sure. Say Hesjedal got popped, will that make a difference?

Well for one wouldn't Vaughters be gone straight away? I don't see Garmin sticking around either.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Well for one wouldn't Vaughters be gone straight away? I don't see Garmin sticking around either.

I don't see any of them leaving. They will continue. Sure a bit of clean up, some PR etc, but then its business as usual.

JV has changed his story many times. One more time will make little diff.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

US Postal/Discovery were in the sport for 10 years. T-Mobile were in it for 16 stretching all the way back to the Telekom days which began in 1991. They hardly all flamed brightly and then dissappeared.

But JV knew what it took to keep them at the top. Team run doping programs aren't as viable with the passport. Just not worth the trouble for the benefit you get. And with social media, much more difficult to keep everyone quiet. Word travels fast, reporters are not as naive as they were 10 years ago.

We will see with Sky. Do they become an institution, or go High Road after a few big years?

 

[Benotti69]

Benotti, I don't know if you are a native english speaker or not, but you NEED to go an learn about the 'Generic you'. there was NO personal abuse in my post. you simply, again, misunderstood it.

Still playing the man but trying to disguise it, albeit badly! Are you a native English speaker??

As for the rest, I'm not really interested in what you think, or believe, or feel. That's not worth a bean. i'm interested in what you can evidence and prove.

Again another misnomer, if this were the case you would wait and post when a poster posted some evidence or proof, but you post more than enough of your own opinion to make the above statement laughable.

 

[martinvickers]

Saying his thoughts and feelings are worthless is a personal attack, Martin.

Maybe you should slow down and not make so many attacks that you cant even keep up.

Nope, just a statement of fact.

Now, go ahead and report, Septic, there's a good boy.

 

[martinvickers]

Still playing the man but trying to disguise it, albeit badly! Are you a native English speaker??

Nope, still you misunderstanding, or perhaps just pretending to.

Again another misnomer, if this were the case you would wait and post when a poster posted some evidence or proof, but you post more than enough of your own opinion to make the above statement laughable.

I think you meant something else here, Benotti.

 

[red_flanders]

Why don't you all take it offline. We'd all appreciate it.