JV talks, sort of

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

JV in a tough spot...

Put himself there in my opinion..

Betting the house, that none of your riders tests positive... Is heavy betting..
But he had a long and (partly) good run with this discourse...

Well, maybe the B-sample could change things... Let's see...

It was always a stupid way of going about things in the first place. Even if you're 100% earnest in your and your organization's opposition to doping, you can't account for the decisions of every rider on your team.

Yes, it's pure idiocy. But if you want to cash in on the "look at us, zero tolerance about dem dirty dopers!" market you better be ready to be a man of your word.

Now, it just needs to be twisted into Tom not really testing positive. Had a bad steak, the pharmacy made a mistake, someone rubbed cream on him without him knowing it, too many unit of alcohol or what have you. Willful doping, though? Heaven forbid.

Tommy D has always been a doper. The word in the cycling community here in Durango is that his first wife left him over his doping. I am guessing that maybe Tommy D thought that the American races would be less stringent with testing so he started his "T" buildup early but instead got caught by an out of competition test. Definitely one the dumber dopers in the peloton.

Possibly, fortunately he has been caught and that is a message for other possible dopers in those races.

JV must give an explanation of how a possible doper along these years is in his team.

Anyway JV deserves more aplause in the antidoping than most of the directors.

That is not saying much. A slow clap is all Vaughters gets, a real slow clap......

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Around the back of the head.

 

[MarkvW]

Re: Re:

Next time (and there will be a next time) some *** artist and former doper pitches a line about "clean cycling," you can just laugh and say "whatever, dude."

Pro cycling is post-hypocritical. Sponsors! Run away!!

And go where?
I agree with everything you said, but it always strikes me as odd that posters here act as though they have been betrayed.

I don't feel betrayed. It is more like watching an ever-unfolding train wreck for me.

 

[carton]

At best, he was hopelessly naive in both slotting in Tommy freaking Danielson and reiterating ad nauseam that ridiculous vow to shut down the team. In context you have to go with at least a little disingenuous.

IMHO, if he wants to restore any credibility JV needs to:

-take the team out of the US Pro Challenge.
-let Hesjedal walk.
-fire himself.
-hire the "cleanest" team manager he can find.

Now we get to see the rubber meet the road. I call the seat furthest from this guy:

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

JV in a tough spot...

Put himself there in my opinion..

Betting the house, that none of your riders tests positive... Is heavy betting..
But he had a long and (partly) good run with this discourse...

Well, maybe the B-sample could change things... Let's see...

It was always a stupid way of going about things in the first place. Even if you're 100% earnest in your and your organization's opposition to doping, you can't account for the decisions of every rider on your team.

Yes, it's pure idiocy. But if you want to cash in on the "look at us, zero tolerance about dem dirty dopers!" market you better be ready to be a man of your word.

Now, it just needs to be twisted into Tom not really testing positive. Had a bad steak, the pharmacy made a mistake, someone rubbed cream on him without him knowing it, too many unit of alcohol or what have you. Willful doping, though? Heaven forbid.

Tommy D has always been a doper. The word in the cycling community here in Durango is that his first wife left him over his doping. I am guessing that maybe Tommy D thought that the American races would be less stringent with testing so he started his "T" buildup early but instead got caught by an out of competition test. Definitely one the dumber dopers in the peloton.

Possibly, fortunately he has been caught and that is a message for other possible dopers in those races.

JV must give an explanation of how a possible doper along these years is in his team.

Anyway JV deserves more aplause in the antidoping than most of the directors.

The only message sent is the same message as always.

If you're near retirement, on a Continental Team or not had results all your career you're fair game.

If you're bringing in the fans - and the $$$$ - you're fine, as long as you don't go totally stupid or get sloppy.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

At best, he was hopelessly naive in both slotting in Tommy freaking Danielson and reiterating ad nauseam that ridiculous vow to shut down the team. In context you have to go with at least a little disingenuous.

IMHO, if he wants to restore any credibility JV needs to:

-take the team out of the US Pro Challenge.
-let Hesjedal walk.
-fire himself.
-hire the "cleanest" team manager he can find.

Now we get to see the rubber meet the road. I call the seat furthest from this guy:

The one thing Vaughters is not, is naive. Taking on all those ex USPS was not naive. He needed their knowledge and experience in many ways.

You can sit anywhere you please.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

JV must give an explanation of how a possible doper along these years is in his team.

technical instrument measurement was skewed


it was a machine calibration error

 

[davebqvst]

JV speaks, on Twitter:
@vaughters:
Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.

 

[Red Lobster]

Re: Re:

The only message sent is the same message as always.

If you're near retirement, on a Continental Team or not had results all your career you're fair game.

If you're bringing in the fans - and the $$$$ - you're fine, as long as you don't go totally stupid or get sloppy.

Seems so ... but maybe the categories you recite are more likely to be the guys who get lazy and sloppy with their programs, or don't have the resources for a more carefully constructed program.

 

[red_flanders]

JV speaks, on Twitter:
@vaughters:
Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.

I'm not normally on JV's case, but that is some predictable, foppish, weak sauce.

 

[djpbaltimore]

The team can move forward without JV leading it. If nothing else happens besides TD getting kicked to the curb, JV's proclamations were merely empty rhetoric. Quelle surprise.

 

[HelmutRoole]

JV speaks, on Twitter:
@vaughters:
Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.

It's going to be interesting to see how JV hangs Danielson out to dry. He has to paint him as an isolated rouge element who betrayed his trust and was allowed to operate outside the strict controls of the team.

 

[BeagRigh]

It's going to be interesting to see how JV hangs Danielson out to dry. He has to paint him as an isolated rouge element who betrayed his trust and was allowed to operate outside the strict controls of the team.

The boldered is the difficult bit - I expect (or maybe that should be hope) he's going to face some difficult questions about exactly what the internal testing they do is.

Has JV ever said what there testing involved before?

 

[meat puppet]

you people comment on positive tests and think today is dope... well, is liveing in an past era. toady, is disponibility riders win cleans, is becouse new era. i know becouse i know an guy.

 

[BYOP88]

Regarding Vaughters, just a case of SSDD. Cycling will never clean itself up whilst guys like him are involved in it.

 

[doperhopper]

JV speaks, on Twitter:
@vaughters:
Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.

It's going to be interesting to see how JV hangs Danielson out to dry. He has to paint him as an isolated rouge element who betrayed his trust and was allowed to operate outside the strict controls of the team.

Maybe we'll also hear the usual childish "you know, he doped only once" (if there's no feasible "steak" excuse).

 

[HelmutRoole]

It's going to be interesting to see how JV hangs Danielson out to dry. He has to paint him as an isolated rouge element who betrayed his trust and was allowed to operate outside the strict controls of the team.

The boldered is the difficult bit - I expect (or maybe that should be hope) he's going to face some difficult questions about exactly what the internal testing they do is.

Has JV ever said what there testing involved before?

I don't believe he has... yet. But now he will. And surely they'll be quite tight. I predict he'll also outline a moment of weakness when he allowed Danielson to operate off the reservation.

 

[fmk_RoI]

The last time JV described the testing it involved DC receiving results from UCI (/ADAMS?), analysing them and having the ability to request additional tests if he felt they were needed (the old indy testing model generally failed on sample collection - it was expensive and inconsistent WRT logistical issues).

 

[MacRoadie]

JV speaks, on Twitter:
@vaughters:
Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.

Note the subtle yet clear redefining and control of the narrative.

Before, folding up shop and ending the whole operation was, by Vaughter's own account, the only proper and honorable thing to do. One doper and we're done was the clear and unambiguous mantra.

Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired.

Now, doing so would be "selfish" and hurting "a few good people".

In other words, Jonathan is doing the right thing by doing exactly the opposite of what he said was the right thing to do.

 

[Benotti69]

JV speaks, on Twitter:
@vaughters:
Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.

Note the subtle yet clear redefining and control of the narrative.

Before, folding up shop and ending the whole operation was, by Vaughter's own account, the only proper and honorable thing to do. One doper and we're done was the clear and unambiguous mantra.

Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired.

Now, doing so would be "selfish" and hurting "a few good people".

In other words, Jonathan is doing the right thing by doing exactly the opposite of what he said was the right thing to do.

JV, talks about not doing the selfish thing, but in reality he is doing the selfish thing.

So JV talked a load of BS when he said one positive and this team is history, oh look he lied, just like 99.9% of the people involved in this sport. That is called snakeoil.

You know what Cannondale could've reformed and JV could gone elsewhere to some other *** corporatation where they blow smoke up each others ases, but nah, he lied.

Internal testing? That a lie? Obviously otherwise why did Danielson test positive. This is Danielson biggest race of the year! (sad as that is).

Wiggins/Hesjedal blood spikes in the 3rd week of GTs? Machine Calibration errors? Of course these were lies.

Vaughters has just shown his true colours. Nice one JV. We should thank Danielson in a fecked up way for showing the true JV yet again.

Slipstream can stop the BS about being a clean team now. They aren't. Fact.

Glad Bjarne Riis did the selfish thing and disappeared.

Does anyone think JV is the glue that binds slipstream together? He fell out with so many over the years, the team would probably flourish under others.

 

[the delgados]

JV speaks, on Twitter:
@vaughters:
Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.

Note the subtle yet clear redefining and control of the narrative.

Before, folding up shop and ending the whole operation was, by Vaughter's own account, the only proper and honorable thing to do. One doper and we're done was the clear and unambiguous mantra.

Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired.

Now, doing so would be "selfish" and hurting "a few good people".

In other words, Jonathan is doing the right thing by doing exactly the opposite of what he said was the right thing to do.

And I totally agree with him.
I understand the frustrations of folks here and the rush to point out hypocritical statements made years ago by the likes of JV. But folding the team and putting, what, 80 people out of work because a two-bit pro about to retire put some cream on his sack (actually, i just made that up; I don't know how testo is applied) seems extremely masochistic.
Really, what good would that do?
The Kimmage thread prompted me to pick up Rough Ride for the first time in 20 years, and the similarities between today and yesterday are striking. And I'm not just referring to dpoing.
I'm referring to the amount of miles and races the riders put in and it amazes me that anyone could get through a season without doping.
I see so many riders line up at the Tour of Poland who rode Le Tour and wonder how in the hell they can do it.
I apologize for veering off topic here, but maybe it's time to revisit the whole doping think in a sincere manner, rather than continuing to demonize riders who are trying to survive.

 

[MacRoadie]

And I totally agree with him.
I understand the frustrations of folks here and the rush to point out hypocritical statements made years ago by the likes of JV. But folding the team and putting, what, 80 people out of work because a two-bit pro about to retire put some cream on his sack (actually, i just made that up; I don't know how testo is applied) seems extremely masochistic.

No one ever believed that would happen: then or now.

 

[Benotti69]

JV speaks, on Twitter:
@vaughters:
Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.

Note the subtle yet clear redefining and control of the narrative.

Before, folding up shop and ending the whole operation was, by Vaughter's own account, the only proper and honorable thing to do. One doper and we're done was the clear and unambiguous mantra.

Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired.

Now, doing so would be "selfish" and hurting "a few good people".

In other words, Jonathan is doing the right thing by doing exactly the opposite of what he said was the right thing to do.

And I totally agree with him.
I understand the frustrations of folks here and the rush to point out hypocritical statements made years ago by the likes of JV. But folding the team and putting, what, 80 people out of work because a two-bit pro about to retire put some cream on his sack (actually, i just made that up; I don't know how testo is applied) seems extremely masochistic.
Really, what good would that do?
The Kimmage thread prompted me to pick up Rough Ride for the first time in 20 years, and the similarities between today and yesterday are striking. And I'm not just referring to dpoing.
I'm referring to the amount of miles and races the riders put in and it amazes me that anyone could get through a season without doping.
I see so many riders line up at the Tour of Poland who rode Le Tour and wonder how in the hell they can do it.
I apologize for veering off topic here, but maybe it's time to revisit the whole doping think in a sincere manner, rather than continuing to demonize riders who are trying to survive.

These statements were published in the NYtimes in June of THIS YEAR. Cannondale knew of them. JV still spouted them to prove to the world that they were serious about being a clean team.

Well guess what. HE LIED!

JV is marketing, business and snakeoil. He aint about a clean sport. He cant be and licking up to the likes of Tinkoff and praising Sky.

Time to make doping criminal offence, punishable with massive financial penalties and if those penalties are not paid, jail time. Punish teams, punish doctors, punish national federations. In fact make it a profitable business to catch people doping. No SOL either. That would make them pi$$ themselves in a hurry. It would truly be bread and water.

 

[the delgados]

Apologies for not explaining myself very well.
I know he lied, as do every rider who proclaim themselves to be clean only to get popped or implicated years later.
My point is perhaps the best way to stop the lies from both riders and team managers is to have a serious discussion about allowing certain elements of doping into the peloton.
I think it was Gesinck who dropped out of a race today citing fatigue. He's one of the best riders in the world--one of whom JV should have picked up a while back. At least he gives the impression of riding clean by dropping out of races. After all, that was the original motto of Slipstream Sports--we don't care if you win as long as you ride clean.

 

[skippythepinhead]

JV speaks, on Twitter:
@vaughters:
Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.

Note the subtle yet clear redefining and control of the narrative.

Before, folding up shop and ending the whole operation was, by Vaughter's own account, the only proper and honorable thing to do. One doper and we're done was the clear and unambiguous mantra.

Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired.

Now, doing so would be "selfish" and hurting "a few good people".

In other words, Jonathan is doing the right thing by doing exactly the opposite of what he said was the right thing to do.

And I totally agree with him.
I understand the frustrations of folks here and the rush to point out hypocritical statements made years ago by the likes of JV. But folding the team and putting, what, 80 people out of work because a two-bit pro about to retire put some cream on his sack (actually, i just made that up; I don't know how testo is applied) seems extremely masochistic.
Really, what good would that do?
The Kimmage thread prompted me to pick up Rough Ride for the first time in 20 years, and the similarities between today and yesterday are striking. And I'm not just referring to dpoing.
I'm referring to the amount of miles and races the riders put in and it amazes me that anyone could get through a season without doping.
I see so many riders line up at the Tour of Poland who rode Le Tour and wonder how in the hell they can do it.
I apologize for veering off topic here, but maybe it's time to revisit the whole doping think in a sincere manner, rather than continuing to demonize riders who are trying to survive.

These statements were published in the NYtimes in June of THIS YEAR. Cannondale knew of them. JV still spouted them to prove to the world that they were serious about being a clean team.

Well guess what. HE LIED!

JV is marketing, business and snakeoil. He aint about a clean sport. He cant be and licking up to the likes of Tinkoff and praising Sky.

Time to make doping criminal offence, punishable with massive financial penalties and if those penalties are not paid, jail time. Punish teams, punish doctors, punish national federations. In fact make it a profitable business to catch people doping. No SOL either. That would make them pi$$ themselves in a hurry. It would truly be bread and water.

Yes, absolutely regarding cheating to win a bike race--make prison space by releasing non-violent recreational drug users and fill with the pros. WRT to the argument "the races are hard, how can they not dope?...." Adjusting race/stage distances and course profiles might have to happen--but since the current formats are made to accommodate doped performances and training, that conversation should rightfully take place outside the clinic. You can't make cycling "easier" until it is truly "harder."