Last clean Grand Tour winner?

[I Watch Cycling In July]

The points about logistics are well taken, but surely logistics wouldn't preclude a pre-tour transfusion (perhaps homologous from a known healthy donor).

 

[Escarabajo]

... The precise moment that an individual doctor decided that blood doping in GTs was an acceptable risk is complete minutiae. As such it is pretty ridiculous to expect it to be documented.

...

I think this is the right conclusion.

I don't know from where are we going to get documented scientific information on blood doping in the GT???

It is ridiculous.

My points I take from this is:

1- It was considered risky at the time. For whatever reason: heat, technology, etc.
2- Logistically speaking it was hard to do: Blood conservation, amount of blood, transportation, periods for donations and infusions.
3- With the introduction of EPO there was no need for blood transfusion until a test for detecting EPO was found. Then the transfusion was perfected using EPO.
4- Limited documentation on transfusions on GT. In the modern times we only have what whistle blowers tell us, hard core evidence from police raids and the blood profiles for analysis.

 

[Martin]

CHUCK NORRIS!!!!!!!!!!!!
He is not competing anymore, beacuse it's boring to race in your own category and to be in the finish hours before first motorcycle marshals.

 

[poupou]

1960 Tour winner Gastone Nencini was caught in his room by Tour doctor Pierre Dumas tranfusing his own blood- lines in both arms. Still won since not illegal at time. (February Procycling p.74 and "Cycling's Golden Age:Heroes of the Postwar Era, 1946-1967" p.125) Is it reasonable to believe that he was the only rider doing this. or that it did not continue on into other eras, including the '80s? Considering what we know, and has been discussed on these forums, regarding certain middle distance runners in the '70s, the '84 USA Cycling team (and from personal interaction with several members of that team can confirm the doping and they noted it was pretty widespread), and what we have seen over the past 30 years can't believe that it ever completely went away.

It was not a blood transfusion, it was a bad translation.

L’année suivante, en 1960, le Dr Pierre Dumas, médecin du Tour de France, en entrant dans la chambre du champion italien Gastone Nencini, le trouve allongé sur son lit, « les deux bras reliés à un bocal, se prêtant à une double perfusion de sérum à base d’hormones mâles ».

 

[Big GMaC]

It was not a blood transfusion, it was a bad translation.

L’année suivante, en 1960, le Dr Pierre Dumas, médecin du Tour de France, en entrant dans la chambre du champion italien Gastone Nencini, le trouve allongé sur son lit, « les deux bras reliés à un bocal, se prêtant à une double perfusion de sérum à base d’hormones mâles ».

Basically he was transfusing males hormones, i.e. testo, not blood

 

[BroDeal]

Since when is the practice of freezing the red blood cells has been going on? Do you know or have any links?
Thanks

I found a link that says the process was developed in the lab in 1968. It appears to have put into practice for blood storage in the early to mid 70's. There are several U.S. patents from the early 90's for various ways to cryopreserve blood, and currently the U.S. allows four different solutions for combination with RBCs during storage.

Storage temperature is around -80C, so specialized equipment is required.

 

[Escarabajo]

I found a link that says the process was developed in the lab in 1968. It appears to have put into practice for blood storage in the early to mid 70's. There are several U.S. patents from the early 90's for various ways to cryopreserve blood, and currently the U.S. allows four different solutions for combination with RBCs during storage.

Storage temperature is around -80C, so specialized equipment is required.

Thanks.

So it basically came down to logistics as to why they didn't blood dope in the 80's in the Grand Tour.

 

[BroDeal]

Thanks.

So it basically came down to logistics as to why they didn't blood dope in the 80's in the Grand Tour.

Guessing, but there could have been worries about dehydration issues when used in uncontrolled conditions like long road events. Maybe Dr. Conconi's work in the late 80's led to a cocktail of drugs to minimize the risks of racing with a high hematocrit.

Fignon fessed up to using a lot of stuff, but said he did not use EPO. If he had been using transfusions then there would be no reason for him not to mention it in his recent book.

 

[Regis1]

Thanks Big GMaC and Pou Pou for correction. Not speaking French rely on others for translations and in these cases it appears they got it wrong. At least although some form of doping likely goes back to day one of cycling, blood doping doesn't appear to have been a long-term (relatively) part of that.

 

[Race Radio]

I was living in Europe for much the 80's and early 90's. Doping has always been something of an interest to me, even when I was a kid. At the time Blood doping was know to been used by distance runners and skiers. Bike racers thought it was crazy because of the risks. I remember a common side effect was nose bleeds due to high blood pressure.

Certainly logistics played a role. There were few team buses. I can't imaging trying to store and transport back then. You cannot ignore that it was not until doctors who specialized in blood came into the sport that riders became more comfortable with the method. Ferrari wrote his doctoral thesis on blood. Fuentes employed a Hemotolgist.

The lack of ANY evidence is a key point. There have been many books and interviews written about doping in the 80's, none mention blood doping by GT riders. The rider who had perhaps the greatest year of the decade was Roche. Does anyone think that his roommate, Paul Kimmage, would ignore a bag of blood in the room?

 

[Polish]

The lack of ANY evidence is a key point. There have been many books and interviews written about doping in the 80's, none mention blood doping by GT riders. The rider who had perhaps the greatest year of the decade was Roche. Does anyone think that his roommate, Paul Kimmage, would ignore a bag of blood in the room?

Did Kimmage write about the EPO being used in the 1980's?
I do not know the answer, that is why I ask

Seems EPO use in the 1980 GT's is the most tragic part of that era.

From the NYTimes article:

"Physicians say they believe athletes began using the drug almost with the beginning of clinical trials in 1986. Then the deaths began. In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly. In 1988 a Belgian and two more Dutch riders died. In 1989 five more Dutch riders died, and last year three Belgians and two Dutch riders died. Transfusions of Extra Blood

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/u...linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=all

And the argument that the dope doctors felt that "blood transfusing was too risky" seems like BS.
They were taking much bigger risks with EPO and killing riders during the 80's.

 

[Race Radio]

Did Kimmage write about the EPO being used in the 1980's?
I do not know the answer, that is why I ask

Seems EPO use in the 1980 GT's is the most tragic part of that era.

From the NYTimes article:

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/u...linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?pagewanted=all

And the argument that the dope doctors felt that "blood transfusing was too risky" seems like BS.
They were taking much bigger risks with EPO and killing riders during the 80's.

The riders that died in 87/88 were not GT riders, they were amateurs.

If you disagree with Conconi's perception of the risks then I suggest you take it up with him. I am sure you can see the duplicity of your argument when you write about dead riders and then try to down play the risk of doping.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The riders that died in 87/88 were not GT riders, they were amateurs.

If you disagree with Conconi's perception of the risks then I suggest you take it up with him. I hope you can see the duplicity of your argument when you write about dead riders and then try to down play the risk of doping.

As we are talking about Polish here I fixed one thing for you.

 

[Polish]

The riders that died in 87/88 were not GT riders, they were amateurs.

If you disagree with Conconi's perception of the risks then I suggest you take it up with him. I am sure you can see the duplicity of your argument when you write about dead riders and then try to down play the risk of doping.

When have I down played the risks of doping??
The risks of doping are the foundation of my Doping=Fail beliefs.

And are you denying there was EPO use in ANY of the 80's GT's?
That is even weaker than denying ANY use of blood transfusing in the 80's GTs.

Do you think Conconi and/or Kimmage knew what was going on in ALL
the hotel rooms of ALL the teams during ALL the 80 GT's?

How about even on year/GT...1987
(What do you think the Gendarmes would have found if they searched
the trash bins in 87? No trasfusing stuff? No EPO stuff? C'mon!)

Année 1987

Résumé Histoire Les étapes Les partants Les maillots par étape Les vainqueurs d'étape

Les partants
TOSHIBA-LOOK-LA VIE CLAIRE
001 Jean-François BERNARD
002 Kim ANDERSEN
003 Steve BAUER
004 Charly BERARD
005 Dominique GARDE
006 Heinz IMBODEN
007 Jean-Claude LECLERCQ
008 Niki RUTTIMAN
009 Guido WINTERBERG
CARRERA JEANS
011 Stephen ROCHE
012 Guido BONTEMPI
013 Davide CASSANI
014 Massimo GHIROTTO
015 Erich MAECHLER
016 Jorgen PEDERSEN
017 Giancarlo PERINI
018 Eddy SCHEPERS
019 Urs ZIMMERMANN
HITACHI-MARC-ROSSIN-MAVIC
021 Claude CRIQUIELION
022 Hendrik DEVOS
023 Rudy DHAENENS
024 Fabian FUCHS
025 Jos HAEX
026 Patrick JACOBS
027 Stefan MORJEAN
028 Jean-Philippe VANDENBRANDE
029 Jan WIJNANTS
Z-PEUGEOT
031 Pascal SIMON
032 Fréderic BRUN
033 Bruno CORNILLET
034 Gilbert DUCLOS-LASSALLE
035 Jean-Louis GAUTHIER
036 Gilbert GLAUS
037 Denis ROUX
038 Jérôme SIMON
039 Bruno WOJTINEK
B.H.
041 Anselmo FUERTE
042 Francisco-José ANTEQUERA
043 Philippe BOUVATIER
044 Laudelino CUBINO GONZALEZ
045 Manuel-Jorge DOMINGUEZ
046 Federico ECHAVE
047 José-Luis NAVARRO
048 Francisco RODRIGUEZ
049 Guido VAN CALSTER
PDM
051 Pedro DELGADO
052 Gerrie KNETEMANN
053 José-Luis LAGUIA
054 Jörg MULLER
055 Stefan MUTTER
056 Steven ROOKS
057 Peter STEVENHAAGEN
058 Gert-Jan THEUNISE
059 Adri VAN DER POEL
SYSTEME U
061 Laurent FIGNON
062 Bernard GAVILLET
063 Martial GAYANT
064 Christophe LAVAINNE
065 Marc MADIOT
066 Yvon MADIOT
067 Thierry MARIE
068 Charly MOTTET
069 Pascal POISSON
REYNOLDS-SEUR-SADA
071 Angel ARROYO
072 Dominique ARNAUD
073 Samuel CABRERA
074 Marc GOMEZ
075 Julian GOROSPE
076 Ruben GOROSPE
077 Jésus HERNANDEZ-UBEDA
078 Miguel INDURAIN
079 Angel OCANA
TEKA
081 Raimund DIETZEN
082 Enrique Alberto AJA CAGIGAS
083 Jésus BLANCO-VILLAR
084 Eduardo CHOZAS OLMO
085 Régis CLERE
086 Alfonso GUTIERREZ
087 Carlos HERNANDEZ
088 Peter HILSE
089 Jésus RODRIGUEZ-MAGRO
RYALCAO-MANZANA-POSTOBON
091 Pablo WILCHES
092 Alberto Luis CAMARGO
093 Arsenio CHAPARRO CARDOSO
094 Omar HERNANDEZ
095 Carlos JARAMILLO
096 Gérardo MONCADA
097 Nestor MORA
098 Pedro-Saul MORALES
099 Oscar de Jésus VARGAS
RMO-MERAL-MAVIC
101 Patrice ESNAULT
102 André CHAPPUIS
103 Thierry CLAVEYROLAT
104 Jean-Claude COLOTTI
105 Paul KIMMAGE
106 Gilles MAS
107 Jean-Frnçois RAULT
108 Bernard VALLET
109 Michel VERMOTE
CAJA RURAL-ORBEA
111 Marino LEJARETTA
112 Roque DE LA CRUZ
113 Mathieu HERMANS
114 Pascal JULES
115 Roland LE CLERC
116 Jokin MUJIKA
117 Erwin NIJBOER
118 Pello RUIZ-CABESTANY
119 José-Salvador SANCHIS
FAGOR
121 Pedro MUNOZ
122 Jean-Claude BAGOT
123 Jean-René BERNAUDEAU
124 Eric CARITOUX
125 Martin EARLEY
126 Robert FÖRSTER
127 Frank HOSTE
128 François LEMARCHAND
129 Sean YATES
CAFÉ DE COLOMBIA
131 Luis ''Lucho'' HERRERA
132 Rafaël ACEVEDO PORRAS
133 Argemiro BOHORQUEZ
134 Julio-César CADENA
135 Juan-Carlos CASTILLO
136 Marco-Antonio LEON
137 Fabio PARRA
138 Christobal PEREZ
139 Martin RAMIREZ
SUPERCONFEX-KWANTUM-YOKO-COLNAGO
141 Maarten DUCROT
142 Rolf GOLZ
143 Gert JAKOBS
144 Jelle NIJDAM
145 Ludo PEETERS
146 Luc ROOSEN
147 Gerrit SOLLEVELD
148 Jean-Paul VAN POPPEL
149 Nico VERHOEVEN
PANASONIC-ISOSTAR
151 Phil ANDERSON
152 Erik BREUKINK
153 Théo DE ROOY
154 Henk LUBBERDING
155 Robert MILLAR
156 Guy NULENS
157 Alan PEIPER
158 Eric VAN LANCKER
159 Teun VAN VLIET
DEL TONGO-COLNAGO
161 Giuseppe SARONNI
162 Silvano CONTINI
163 Czeslaw LANG
164 Luciano LORO
165 Lech PIASECKI
166 Alessandro PIOVANI
167 Alessandro POZZI
168 Alberto SARONNI
169 Ennio VANOTTI
KAS-MIKO-MAVIC
171 Sean KELLY
172 Alfred ACHERMANN
173 Acacio DA SILVA
174 Inaki GASTON
175 Stephan JOHO
176 Luis-Javier LUKIN
177 Javier MURGUIALDAY
178 Celestino PRIETO
179 Gilles SANDERS
JOKER-EMERXIL-EDDY MERCKX
181 Marc SERGEANT
182 Nico BREU
183 Michel DERNIES
184 Jan GOESSENS
185 Jos LIECKENS
186 Jan NEVENS
187 Peter ROES
188 Frank VAN DE VIJVER
189 Wim VAN EYNDE
SEVEN ELEVEN-HOONVED
191 Andrew ''Andy'' HAMPSTEN
192 Raúl ALCALÁ
193 Jonathan BOYER
194 Jeff BRADLEY
195 Ron KIEFEL
196 Dag Otto LAURITZEN
197 Davis PHINNEY
198 Jeff PIERCE
199 Bob ROLL
ROLAND-SKALA-CHIORI-COLNAGO
201 Dietrich THURAU
202 John BOGERS
203 Johan CAPIOT
204 Herman FRISON
205 Rudy PATRY
206 Jesper SKIBBY
207 Brian SÖRENSEN
208 Jacques VAN DER POEL
209 Patrick VERSCHUEREN
SUPERMERCATI BRIANZOLI-CHATEAU D’AX
211 Vittorio ALGERI
212 Stefano ALLOCHIO
213 Roberto AMADIO
214 Giovanni Paolo BOTTOIA
215 Claudio CORTI
216 Stefano GIULIANI
217 Milan JURCO
218 Dario MONTANI
219 Gérard ZADROBILEK
A.N.C-HALFORDS-LYCRA
221 Malcolm ELLIOTT
222 Bernard CHESNEAU
223 Guy GALLOPIN
224 Graham JONES
225 Kvetoslav PALOV
226 Shane SUTTON
227 Stephen SWART
228 Adrian TIMMIS
229 Paul WATSON

Retour
© A.S.O. / Amaury Sport Organisation - Tous droits réservés.

 

[Race Radio]

When have I down played the risks of doping??
The risks of doping are the foundation of my Doping=Fail beliefs.

And are you denying there was EPO use in ANY of the 80's GT's?
That is even weaker than denying ANY use of blood transfusing in the 80's GTs.

Do you think Conconi and/or Kimmage knew what was going on in ALL
the hotel rooms of ALL the teams during ALL the 80 GT's?

How about even on year/GT...1987
(What do you think the Gendarmes would have found if they searched
the trash bins in 87? No trasfusing stuff? No EPO stuff? C'mon!)

Let us know when you come up with some evidence.

Th fact remains, not one rider, DS, doctor, support staff, etc. has ever mentioned Blood Doping by a GT rider in the 80's. Let us know if you find anyone who can prove this wrong.

 

[Polish]

The riders that died in 87/88 were not GT riders, they were amateurs.
.

Unfortunately, it is usually the amateurs who suffer the most in the back room doping clinics.

But let me get this straight - you are saying amateurs were using EPO in the 1980's, but not the pros? The amateurs were using EPO years before the pro's were? The pro's noticed the results the amateurs were getting, and thought "Gee, this EPO thing must be good!"?

 

[Race Radio]

Unfortunately, it is usually the amateurs who suffer the most in the back room doping clinics.

But let me get this straight - you are saying amateurs were using EPO in the 1980's, but not the pros? The amateurs were using EPO years before the pro's were? The pro's noticed the results the amateurs were getting, and thought "Gee, this EPO thing must be good!"?

You appear to be confusing blood doping with EPO. They are different.

While there is nothing to support this beyond rumor it has been said that small group of Dutch amateurs got a hold of EPO in the late 80's which resulted in several deaths. Most would say that EPO starting hitting the top of the Peloton in 90/91 becoming widespread in 93-95

 

[Oldman]

You appear to be confusing blood doping with EPO. They are different.

While there is nothing to support this beyond rumor it has been said that small group of Dutch amateurs got a hold of EPO in the late 80's which resulted in several deaths. Most would say that EPO starting hitting the top of the Peloton in 90/91 becoming widespread in 93-95

yeah. Gert Jan Theuisse went on a solo escapade that typified the disparity between enhanced and just "gassed". Look at the cast of that Tour and you'll have to agree there were no innocents in the top ten.

 

[42coppi]

Last Clean Tour Winner

Indurain ?

 

[Big GMaC]

Indurain ?

ha! Indurain is THE example of what EPO can do for you in a GT, asides the illustrious Uniballer. prior to '91 he was a strong TT-er, but no hope up hill and consecutive days in Mtns. Then --> BAM. 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st...

 

[pueblo 2 wheels]

ha! Indurain is THE example of what EPO can do for you in a GT, asides the illustrious Uniballer. prior to '91 he was a strong TT-er, but no hope up hill and consecutive days in Mtns. Then --> BAM. 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st...

Probably Lemond, or at least the time period before the early 90's

 

[pueblo 2 wheels]

I have to change my mind. I will go with Sastre. Then Lemond.

 

[icefire]

I have to change my mind. I will go with Sastre. Then Lemond.

Sastre? Seriously? The man who started his pro career riding for team ONCE? The man who has defended Manolo Saiz after OP?

 

[Oncearunner8]

I have to change my mind. I will go with Sastre. Then Lemond.

OMG

Sastre then Lemond?

seriously?


Just leave it at Lemond. I would think that is the last hope for a clean TDF winner.

 

[blackcat]

last hope ever my friend from Reb Lodster.