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Teams & Riders Mark Cavendish Discussion Thread

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Frosty said:
Come on, bet the others would like to do that to the press too.:p
Yes, but they don't. It comes with being civilized.
Froome19 said:
As i have said before he gets caught up in the adrenalyn of the sprint and cant really control himself but he always apologises afterwards if he has done something wrong and its up to you if you want to dislike him for that.:rolleyes:
Like the husband who gets caught up in the alcohol and beats his wife but apologizes later!

Look, the adrenaline is there for the other guys too. They just manage to keep it under control because they're not jerks.
 
hatcher said:
Weak. Very, very weak.

Your argument certainly is. You cannot seem to do anything but a whine, "Oh, nooo. It cannot be true. I don't believe it. It just doesn't matter. It's none of my business."

Try harder. I'm sure you can come up with some sort of convoluted rationalization to to excuse Chavendish's behavior.
 
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BroDeal said:
In other words, when he gets excited his true personality shows through and he scrambles to do damage control afterwards.

Aaah no... are you claiming that every sprinter who gets a bit argy bargy in the sprint is evil (like you say Cav is)
I dont know about you but generally when people are in intense competition they get a bit wired up and they get just a bit heated, its certainly not their true personna.. everybody wants to win and sometimes that just takes over a bit too much.
 
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hrotha said:
Look, the adrenaline is there for the other guys too. They just manage to keep it under control because they're not jerks.

When you were at school I am sure there were some guys with ADHD who got just a bit too excited sometimes.. think of Cav as the cycling equivalent
 
Froome19 said:
Aaah no... are you claiming that every sprinter who gets a bit argy bargy in the sprint is evil (like you say Cav is)
I dont know about you but generally when people are in intense competition they get a bit wired up and they get just a bit heated, its certainly not their true personna.. everybody wants to win and sometimes that just takes over a bit too much.

Sorry, dude, but I never spit on anyone during a race or any other competition. And I certainly never did so while the other person was lying in pain on the ground.

It's moments like that where Cav's true character has shown through.
 
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BroDeal said:
Sorry, dude, but I never spit on anyone during a race or any other competition. And I certainly never did so while the other person was lying in pain on the ground.

It's moments like that where Cav's true character has shown through.

That story has been heavily scrutinised on this thread and the verdict has been passed that it can not be used as a proof of Cavendish's monstrosity.

Anyway as this is a depreciation thread i will leave you to your hate rants about Cav.
 
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Froome19 said:
That story has been heavily scrutinised on this thread and the verdict has been passed that it can not be used as a proof of Cavendish's monstrosity.

Anyway as this is a depreciation thread i will leave you to your hate rants about Cav.

Plus BroDeal quite probably has spat on people. There's no evidence for that either, but who cares?

edit: Anyway, I'll take my cue from you and will leave it there!
 
BroDeal said:
Your argument certainly is. You cannot seem to do anything but a whine, "Oh, nooo. It cannot be true. I don't believe it. It just doesn't matter. It's none of my business."

Try harder. I'm sure you can come up with some sort of convoluted rationalization to to excuse Chavendish's behavior.

To be fair, BroDeal. The relationship between Mark and his parents is way out of our scope to make anything on.

But what I don't get is that, how can i be hard to undestand that many develop some kind of hatred to a person who's does quite a number of unsympathetic stuff?.. That's kind of obvious.
 
DominicDecoco said:
To be fair, BroDeal. The relationship between Mark and his parents is way out of our scope to make anything on.

But what I don't get is that, how can i be hard to undestand that many develop some kind of hatred to a person who's does quite a number of unsympathetic stuff. That's kind of obvious.

I personally find it impossible to understand how anyone can 'hate' someone who they dont know and have no direct contact with.
 
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Richeypen said:
I personally find it impossible to understand how anyone can 'hate' someone who they dont know and have no direct contact with.

Couldnt resist but...

+10000
This is exactly the point, no one knows enough about riders like cav to hate him
 
Froome19 said:
Thats the whole point he does do stupid things but does that truly justfy such hatred?:confused:
Everybody does stupid things and even if he does it more than others i would not say that that is something which can determine Cavendish's personality and morality.

Does it justify the hatred? Well, it has to depend on your opinion of the actual actions. However, like many star sportsmen, Cavendish polarises the audience.

I don't dislike Cavendish himself per se, but I do resent the way anything he does breeds arguments. There are those who'll attack him whatever he does, which can be annoying, but I find those who will defend him whatever he does, those conspiracy theorists who feel like Cavendish never does anything wrong, to be more annoying. I also dislike the way he races, not because of what he does himself but simply because that breed of race annoys me. He shouldn't change THAT to suit me, I just wish fewer races were like that, and the strength of his teams in the last couple of years has led to lots of potentially interesting races becoming exceedingly boring.

Like hrotha said with the analogy of the wifebeater; Cavendish does some obnoxious things in the spur of the moment. Being apologetic afterwards doesn't stop those things from being obnoxious though, they just show that he's capable of maturity when he has time to think; when he doesn't he can be a ***. However, some of the negative stories are exaggerated (the alleged spitting on the floor becoming spitting on Haussler in the re-telling) and can be tempered by moments of great human compassion and positivity of character (he has been absolutely brilliant to Jonny Bellis this last two years, and that there can be denying). That doesn't mean it's not ridiculous when people try to paint his treatment of Greipel, or his flipping off the crowd at Romandie, or some of his interview comments, as him being all cute and cuddly and people being offended too easily. He has, wittingly or not, conducted quite an effective smear campaign about Greipel; a lot of utter nonsense has been posted about the German in thread upon thread over the last two years.

Too many people seem to think that morality is like a lightswitch, either on or off. Cavendish, like anybody else, is a nuanced individual who is capable of being both a heroic character and true friend, and a complete and utter tool, sometimes within the same moment. But he's doing it in more of a media fishbowl, and with more violent swings between them (and more visible moments of being a tool).
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
That crash was Haussler's fault?

Yea, and Renshaw didn't headbutt Dean or put Farrar in the barriers, and Daryl Impey's aggressive line and leaning gave Theo Bos no choice but to wrestle him to the ground.

Haussler did wrong at the start of the sprint when his pulling out nearly put Ciolek in the barriers, but where they went down? That's Cav. Haussler isn't blameless, but Cavendish was quite clearly deviating from his line, and not just a bit of lateral movement either. At that point he was way out of form, and it wasn't coming naturally. Normally, it wouldn't matter if he was moving since he's so far ahead of everybody else. But in that kind of form, it is a problem. No intent, no malice, just a mistake. Everybody makes them, even the best. In your opinion, what's Haussler meant to do, just yield and let Cavendish through? Wouldn't you rather him set up a red carpet so that Cav can win his daily procession in luxury too?

The guy has been harshly treated in the past - the poor course design resulting in the penalty in the Tour de France, for example - and people will knock him whatever he does sometimes, but sometimes when it looks like he does a stupid thing, it's not because people are looking for ways to blame him, it's because he did a stupid thing.

Cavendish wasn't blameless but he didn't cause the crash.

Yes the crash itself was Haussler's fault. Simply because if he hadn't made what was clearly a sudden barging movement of his right shoulder into Cavendish they would have remained upright (Have you watched the Eurosport coverage from above and then head on? Because if you have and cannot see clearly you should to go to specsavers).

We are talking about professional bike riders here. I'm an amateur; if you lean on me I'll hold my ground so you won't fall. But I'm not giving way - no sudden nudges required. Push your luck and I'm dropping you. But for rash movements these guys stay up. Cav only lost his balance because of Haussler's stupidity, and was unfairly saddled with the blame.

Regarding the controlled butting movements of Renshaw's head; this was in a completely different incident - which were merely 'warnings' a la the type you see in Keirin racing, as opposed to sudden erratic movements. It bears no comparison to what Haussler did.

Theo Bos was an absolute disgrace.
 
hmsgenoa said:
Cavendish wasn't blameless but he didn't cause the crash.

Yes the crash itself was Haussler's fault. Simply because if he hadn't made what was clearly a sudden barging movement of his right shoulder into Cavendish they would have remained upright (Have you watched the Eurosport coverage from above and then head on? Because if you have and cannot see clearly you should to go to specsavers).
So Haussler is at fault for not giving way?

There shouldn't have been any reason for any barging movement like that, because Cavendish shouldn't have been where he was in the first place. If he wasn't veering wildly, he and Haussler wouldn't have been close to each other, so it's irrelevant whether Haussler steered into it, or played Graeme Brown and did a bit of jostling. What was he meant to do, just pull out of the way and let Cavendish keep going? Hell, he was veering so wildly he'd probably have gone headlong into the barriers on his own like Abdoujaparov if Haussler hadn't been there.
 
Froome19 said:
When you were at school I am sure there were some guys with ADHD who got just a bit too excited sometimes.. think of Cav as the cycling equivalent
Well then, in abscence of any information suggesting that Cavendish does in fact have ADHD or is an Aspie or anything of the sort, I have to conclude that he acts like that because he's a jerk.

About the "hatred": it's not "hatred." We use "hate" as a colourful substitute for our real feelings, which are more like "casual dislike." Of course you can't really "hate" someone you don't know personally, but that's just semantics.
 
Richeypen said:
I personally find it impossible to understand how anyone can 'hate' someone who they dont know and have no direct contact with.

Richey, mate. When I write 'hate' I mean hate cycling wise. I'm here to discuss about cycling. That's why I mentioned the relationship between Cav and his parents. There's nothing to discuss there. But there's plenty of stuff that Cav has done in the peloton that can justify a 'hatred' towards him as a cyclist. Being that his style, abilities or arrogance on the bike.

I'm sure he nice fella in his livingroom with his bird and coming child. That's not the point though.

Just for the record. I don't hate Cav. He's one of a kind in his catagory. But there's plenty of reasons why you'd find people hating him. Again - Cycling wise. If it's something personal then it's another story. For me personal it's all about cycling and when I see someone hating on Cav I believe it's because of what he's doing on the bike.
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
So Haussler is at fault for not giving way?

There shouldn't have been any reason for any barging movement like that, because Cavendish shouldn't have been where he was in the first place. If he wasn't veering wildly, he and Haussler wouldn't have been close to each other, so it's irrelevant whether Haussler steered into it, or played Graeme Brown and did a bit of jostling. What was he meant to do, just pull out of the way and let Cavendish keep going? Hell, he was veering so wildly he'd probably have gone headlong into the barriers on his own like Abdoujaparov if Haussler hadn't been there.

Please don't miss the point again, I couldn't have explained more clearly. I've been in races where riders have lent on me in a sprint finish; you use your weight and balance to effectively hold them, hold yourselves up - move away and they fall, barge them and they fall. Hold your ground and it doesn't need to be like a pack of cards, if Haussler hadn't made that violent movement they would have stayed up.

Regarding Cavendish 'shouldn't have been there in the first place - get real. This is a 'bunch' finish and they are both deviating from a straight course that cannot be denied. This is, anyway, one of the only examples of Cav deviating, unlike the rest his is normally the straightest ride to the line.

Regarding the 'Abdu' moment for Cav yes possibly, he had his head down but the fact remains in a professional environment you behave professionally and it doesn't have to end in tears. Watch the last stage of the 2003 Tour de France. Cav wasn't doing a Henk Lubberding or Theo Bos type effort was he, no that was Haussler - he's the un-professional one.
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
So Haussler is at fault for not giving way?

There shouldn't have been any reason for any barging movement like that, because Cavendish shouldn't have been where he was in the first place. If he wasn't veering wildly, he and Haussler wouldn't have been close to each other, so it's irrelevant whether Haussler steered into it, or played Graeme Brown and did a bit of jostling. What was he meant to do, just pull out of the way and let Cavendish keep going? Hell, he was veering so wildly he'd probably have gone headlong into the barriers on his own like Abdoujaparov if Haussler hadn't been there.

@ 56 seconds. I rest my case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNsnpmvO7YU
 
hrotha said:
Well then, in abscence of any information suggesting that Cavendish does in fact have ADHD or is an Aspie or anything of the sort, I have to conclude that he acts like that because he's a jerk.

About the "hatred": it's not "hatred." We use "hate" as a colourful substitute for our real feelings, which are more like "casual dislike." Of course you can't really "hate" someone you don't know personally, but that's just semantics.

You can. i can hate jaruzielski for example even though i never met him. Did egg his house though.

Im not comparing cav to a dictator of course but the point is that its not that big a stop to an athlete, many in fact see sport ad more important than life

there are it seems some people on the forum who hate contador and im pretty sure there are a bunch who hate Andy schleck.
 
The Hitch said:
You can. i can hate jaruzielski for example even though i never met him. Did egg his house though.

Im not comparing cav to a dictator of course but the point is that its not that big a stop to an athlete, many in fact see sport ad more important than life

there are it seems some people on the forum who hate contador and im pretty sure there are a bunch who hate Andy schleck.

not to mention the most obvious.
 
hmsgenoa said:
Lets get one thing straight, since the Tour de Suisse crash with Haussler has been brought up; If Haussler hadn't barged him with his shoulder they'd have stayed upright, and Haussler deviated as much from the left hand side of the road as Cav did from the right. Anyone doubting this should check out Eurosports coverage from above, it can clearly be seen that Cav loses his balance the moment Hassler barges him.

How many times have we seen a sprint finish where riders are leaning on each other but stay up because they are being professional (Champs Elysees finish in 2003 anyone). As long as you don't get a berk like Haussler deliberately barging, nobody loses their balance and tumbles. As far as any spitting incident goes its all conjecture and my guess is Cav spat on the ground; so much BS flying around.

'No one likes a winner' is how most of this thread comes across. Most of the negative comments about Cav come from Americans who cannot bear to watch nearly man Tyler Farrar come 2nd again. Cavendish is a phenomenon, and one that needs to be appreciated.

Look at practically any head on shot of a bunch finish that Cavendish wins, a heaving mass of muscular sprinting heavyweights grimacing and left in his wake. He's turned the act of winning a bunch sprint into an art form and you don't like it. If he didn't deliver the goods so often most of you lot wouldn't have anything to moan about.

Your interpretation, or should I say your recall of the crash is skewed. Cav came from one side of the road across to past the center whereupon he deposited his front wheel in front of Haussler's, causing Haussler to pretty much run over Cav's wheel, bring Cav down, himself and numerous other angry competitors including Boonen, who's injuries pretty much ruined his season. Haussler's movement was a small one compared to Cav's broad sweep in front of the pack.
 
hmsgenoa said:
Please don't miss the point again, I couldn't have explained more clearly. I've been in races where riders have lent on me in a sprint finish; you use your weight and balance to effectively hold them, hold yourselves up - move away and they fall, barge them and they fall. Hold your ground and it doesn't need to be like a pack of cards, if Haussler hadn't made that violent movement they would have stayed up.

Regarding Cavendish 'shouldn't have been there in the first place - get real. This is a 'bunch' finish and they are both deviating from a straight course that cannot be denied. This is, anyway, one of the only examples of Cav deviating, unlike the rest his is normally the straightest ride to the line.

Regarding the 'Abdu' moment for Cav yes possibly, he had his head down but the fact remains in a professional environment you behave professionally and it doesn't have to end in tears. Watch the last stage of the 2003 Tour de France. Cav wasn't doing a Henk Lubberding or Theo Bos type effort was he, no that was Haussler - he's the un-professional one.
Both of them cut up Ciolek, Cavendish more so. How he's blameless I don't understand, unless you're wearing Union Jack goggles.

Haussler was deviating a bit, Cavendish more so. Both of them were being reckless, Cavendish more so.

Cav is sometimes given a hard time. But blaming Haussler for the accident here because he happens to drop his shoulder a bit at the last second instead of turning off and letting Goldenballs through is a reach. This is about as obvious a bump as Karpets inadvertently knocking Contador over in the Tour.

Cav wasn't doing a Theo Bos, no. I never said he was. The comparison to Bos earlier was taking the "the guy who 90% of people think is to blame isn't to blame and is being picked on" philosophy of those who think Haussler is to blame here and applying it to other cases.

Also, you say that Haussler is the one being unprofessional; I'd argue that consistent refusal to take responsibility for your actions is pretty unprofessional of Cavendish too. Sprinting as wildly as Cavendish did that day may have been OK in the days of Abdoujaparov, but it doesn't fly today. Especially not from a guy who should be - and usually is - above that kind of nonsense.

Unless you think that his victory at Romandie was him trying to signal that it was his second victory of the year, but pulling his bicep partway through, so having to support it with his other arm.
 
Angliru said:
Your interpretation, or should I say your recall of the crash is skewed. Cav came from one side of the road across to past the center whereupon he deposited his front wheel in front of Haussler's, causing Haussler to pretty much run over Cav's wheel, bring Cav down, himself and numerous other angry competitors including Boonen, who's injuries pretty much ruined his season. Haussler's movement was a small one compared to Cav's broad sweep in front of the pack.

We are apparently discussing only the final moment of the crash, where instead of backing off and letting Cav through like a timid wallflower, Haussler had the temerity to defend his position (although pretty inelegantly). What Cavendish did before then is irrelevant, because it gets in the way of enabling us to pin the blame entirely on Haussler and absolve Cavendish of responsibility for his actions.

On the other hand, re-viewing the crash allows us to see the incredible piece of bike-handling from Óscar Freire again. How he stays up is a minor miracle.
 
hmsgenoa said:
'No one likes a winner' is how most of this thread comes across. Most of the negative comments about Cav come from Americans who cannot bear to watch nearly man Tyler Farrar come 2nd again. Cavendish is a phenomenon, and one that needs to be appreciated.

My being American has absolutely no effect on my opinion of Cav. I'm not a particular fan of Farrar so that doesn't fly either. My favorite sprinter of the current active riders is Oscar Freire, a rider that Cav is quoted as saying he has the utmost respect for of all of his competitors. I can respect his talent while at the same time not appreciate his whining, the disrespect he shows to some of his opponents and his tendency to ride high and be available to the media when the going is good but become scarce when things don't go his way.

The funniest moment to me was the trying time he had the year that he went into MSR in fitful shape, when a rare-form-Greipel should've been there and his having a performance that supported Greipel's perspective of the misjustice that took place by leaving him off the start list. Cav had no wins up to that point, was taking a bit of criticism in the press and when he finally got that first win his victory salute is an obscene gesture which of course was followed by him bawling like baby on the podium. In their exchange, Greipel took the high road while Cav took the quite low road in insulting Greipel and the races he was relegated to compete in, even while Cav was in obvious much worse form than Greipel. Cav just seems to me to be a rather crude, self-centered rider with immense talent in the sprint discipline. There is no more to him than that.
 
Zam_Olyas said:
Cav the ballroom dancer :D
544046376.jpg


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You are surgical with your viciousness!:D