Pereiro goes berserk

[The Hitch]

That when you say this forum is in 'a totally different league' to CN or anything, you're just deluding yourself.

I was wondering because you were talking about politics and religion which are totaly different. Your argument was a bit strange because you said that this forum is deluded (and of 1 mind apparently - we are robots who cant think for ourselves, something you say a lot when you get angry) based on the fact that you think the forums you read on religion and plitics are deluded.

Which is a strange way to reach a conclusion.

Generally the media is a little more sensible that an internet forum.

There you go again. Generalization.

Generally a person from America is more likely to be poor than a person from Norway. Doesnt mean that when you have a Norwegian and an American in 1 room the American is definitely going to be poorer does it?

The media btw is human too, so its hardly infallible.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Applying what I know about the benefits of doping. I don't take it as a court case where you have to present strong factual evidence to support your case.

Without knowing the bloke at all if I was put against a wall and asked whether he doped or not, knowing that he has won several important stages my answer would be yes with what I know about doping and its effects on riders.

And this is nothing against this cyclist in particular who other poster brought about. I was making a general statement.

Having read your view on "the benefits of doping" I think its fair to say you have little knowledge on the subject and that you do not know who Moncoutie is, his history in the sport nor the history of the sport.

Therefore your "general statements" are flawed.

It is payback time. For all those years that Spanish athletes had to compete using second rate doping

Were the east German athletes the only ones doping during the 70's and 80's or was it that they hade the cutting edge on that department?

As we say in Spain, "El que no corre vuela".

The nub of the matter is that we are all cheaters by nature, regardless of nationality. So doping will be a perennial problem. At times some nation will take a strong stance against it, but it won;t last for long, cause at the end of the day we all want to win. That is what sport is about.

If we were all cheaters by nature then there would never be a reason to ban certain activities and doping would be acceptable.

You suggest that you are Spanish - and then suggest sport is all about winning - that might go a long way to explaining the attitude to doping within Spain.

 

[BroDeal]

Jesus manzano even saw well known la liga players visiting fuentes but in the end it was only cyclists who really were investigated and convicted of any wrong doing. Even pat mcquaid said there were other sports linked in with puerto.

Pereiro has nothing to complain about. Spain did not convict a single person of Puerto, whether they were pros in cycling, football, or any other sport. They did not even convict the people caught red handed with money and blood bags in hand. Cycling was just as protected as all the other sports.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Pereiro has nothing to complain about. Spain did not convict a single person of Puerto, whether they were pros in cycling, football, or any other sport. They did not even convict the people caught red handed with money and blood bags in hand. Cycling was just as protected as all the other sports.

Not if those Real or Barca players didn't end their careers in the 2nd division football, it wasn't.
OP has ended up being associated solely with cycling, when we all know that wasn't the case.

Your general point about, however, is indisputable.........................outside of Spain, at least.

 

[hrotha]

Pereiro has nothing to complain about. Spain did not convict a single person of Puerto, whether they were pros in cycling, football, or any other sport. They did not even convict the people caught red handed with money and blood bags in hand. Cycling was just as protected as all the other sports.

That's absurd. Cyclists were the only ones who paid, even if it was in unofficial ways (Mancebo, Sevilla, etc), and Puerto was said to be ONLY about cycling for a long while. Pereiro is not even talking about suspensions or legal action, he's talking about the daily scorn and abuse he goes through simply because he was a cyclist and not a tennis player or something.

 

[Albatros]

Having read your view on "the benefits of doping" I think its fair to say you have little knowledge on the subject and that you do not know who Moncoutie is, his history in the sport nor the history of the sport.

Therefore your "general statements" are flawed.


If we were all cheaters by nature then there would never be a reason to ban certain activities and doping would be acceptable.

You suggest that you are Spanish - and then suggest sport is all about winning - that might go a long way to explaining the attitude to doping within Spain.

I have read quiet a bit about doping, its preponderance and the different doping methods used in different eras. I even read Manzano accounts on his doping menu and the impact it had on his performance, along with more scientific studies . I have even posted here what an eminence in sport during the 30's concluded regarding the state of doping in the sport, but it must have eluded you, doc.

I hold a pessimistic view about human nature, and I know there is a good side in many, including you and may I say me, but I won't ignore, unlike you, the other darker side.

If there wasn't one there wouldn't be the need for antidoping controls in the first place, and considering the amount of dopers that have been caught, it was not one or two breaking the rules, but more likely the majority. Just look at the Festina case, the conffesions of exdopers, Operacion Puerto and its ramifications, etc, etc. And if that bucolic picture you have of human nature was more preponderant, be sure that in other sports they would have caught as many.

Perhaps in the world of cycling is where the more candid souls live.

 

[GotDropped]

Err, unlike those examples you cite, Pereiro had nothing on his name. How is he different from every other top level cyclist of the time, the vast majority of which doped and had no trouble with the authorities of their countries?

Pereiro had nothing on his name because nothing is ever investigated properly by the spanish authorities. When someone goes positive in Spain, they usually (not always) get off with without sanction and the cases have to be apealed to the CAS:

Wikipedia de Iban Mayo:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iban_Mayo#Batalla_legal_con_la_UCI

"La RFEC (Real Federación Española de Ciclismo), competente como organismo sancionador, exculpó al ciclista por las irregularidades cometidas durante el proceso,16 quedando por tanto absuelto."

Wikipedia Iñigo Landaluze:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Íñigo_Landaluze#Sospechas_de_dopaje_y_absoluci.C3.B3n

"La RFEC, organismo competente para sancionar al corredor, archivó el caso sin decretar suspensión alguna, decisión que fue recurrida por la UCI."

And we all know what happened in Contador's case, which was worse when the then President of Spain pressured the RFEC with public statements like "there is no evidence to indicate Contador doped", just before the RFEC verdict was due. How could the president make such a statement without knowing all the facts. The truth is less important than the damage that it would do to Spain.

And then there is the archiving of the fuentes case and the recent destruction of the blood bags without ever knowing who they belonged to. The Spanish authorities want to hide the doping culture in Spain and protect its athletes as best it can.

And as I mentioned earlier Marta Dominguez, caught red handed, and got off scot free, and is now a candidate for the Senate representing the PP party.

There are a lot more examples and details but we risk derailing the thread. The point I am trying to make is that even though I applaud Pereiro for standing up to ignorants, for me he is still a hypocrite because he has been protected by the same authorities that have protected the Spanish Futbol Players and other athletes.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I have read quiet a bit about doping, its preponderance and the different doping methods used in different eras. I even read Manzano accounts on his doping menu and the impact it had on his performance, along with more scientific studies . I have even posted here what an eminence in sport during the 30's concluded regarding the state of doping in the sport, but it must have eluded you, doc.

Then if you understand the highlighted you will know that doping has evolved and that there will be a significant difference between different points in history which means that the gains from doping will change.
That then kills your very general view of doping.

I hold a pessimistic view about human nature, and I know there is a good side in many, including you and may I say me, but I won't ignore, unlike you, the other darker side.

Where have I ever ignored it? You're pessimism has colored your view.

If there wasn't one there wouldn't be the need for antidoping controls in the first place, and considering the amount of dopers that have been caught, it was not one or two breaking the rules, but more likely the majority. Just look at the Festina case, the conffesions of exdopers, Operacion Puerto and its ramifications, etc, etc. And if that bucolic picture you have of human nature was more preponderant, be sure that in other sports they would have caught as many.

Perhaps in the world of cycling is where the more candid souls live.

Perhaps in the world of cycling it gets dopers because the authorities have done little to dissuade the situation.

 

[BroDeal]

That's absurd. Cyclists were the only ones who paid, even if it was in unofficial ways (Mancebo, Sevilla, etc), and Puerto was said to be ONLY about cycling for a long while. Pereiro is not even talking about suspensions or legal action, he's talking about the daily scorn and abuse he goes through simply because he was a cyclist and not a tennis player or something.

Pereiro goes through daily scorn and abuse because he doped. That has nothing to do with any other sport. Crying about football is just an attempt to divert the public's attention.

Sevilla did not pay for OP. He paid for being stupid enough to out Ullrich in the press. Who knows what Mancebo did to get blacklisted but it was not directly OP. Valverde and Contador skated by just fine, fully protected by the Spaniards.

 

[GotDropped]

Mayo??? If he were protected he'd likely still be riding.

Here you have it:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iban_Mayo#Sospechas_desmentidas

Read the line:

"La RFEC (Real Federación Española de Ciclismo), competente como organismo sancionador, exculpó al ciclista por las irregularidades cometidas durante el proceso, quedando por tanto absuelto."

 

[GotDropped]

To be honest his point about footballers getting a lot easier ride is true. Remember gattuso when he refused to do a doping control after an AC Milan game in rome and there was nothing really of note done about it.

Jesus manzano even saw well known la liga players visiting fuentes but in the end it was only cyclists who really were investigated and convicted of any wrong doing. Even pat mcquaid said there were other sports linked in with puerto.

The cyclist weren't convicted because the Spanish authorities did anything, it was because the governing bodies and other countries (like Italy in Valverdes case) which did all the work.

 

[BroDeal]

If Pereiro cares so much about doping then he should man up like FLandis.

 

[GotDropped]

Pereiro goes through daily scorn and abuse because he doped. That has nothing to do with any other sport. Crying about football is just an attempt to divert the public's attention.

Sevilla did not pay for OP. He paid for being stupid enough to out Ullrich in the press. Who knows what Mancebo did to get blacklisted but it was not directly OP. Valverde and Contador skated by just fine, fully protected by the Spaniards.

Athough I do not know the full details about Sevilla and Mancebo, I totally agree with this post.

 

[GotDropped]

If Pereiro cares so much about doping then he should man up like FLandis.

All Pereiro is doing is whingeing about the different treatment dopers in Futbol get compared to dopers in cycling. It is clear that he has no interest in cleaning up the sport.

Which is a shame, as he probably could do a great deal, but I suppose he prefers to live a lie.

 

[BroDeal]

The cyclist weren't convicted because the Spanish authorities did anything, it was because the governing bodies and other countries (like Italy in Valverdes case) which did all the work.

Exactly. It is risible for Pereiro to complain about other sports when the Spanish authorities have done everything in their power to protect cycling in the face of continual scandals and massive amounts of evidence. Despite getting access to a only small portion of the evidence, Italy actually prosecuted a few of those involved in OP. Spain's "investigation" amounted to nothing.

 

[Albatros]

Then if you understand the highlighted you will know that doping has evolved and that there will be a significant difference between different points in history which means that the gains from doping will change.
That then kills your very general view of doping.

Yes, the gains differ along history getti ng bigger as the science of doping improves, and occasionally suffering a drawback when the prominent method or methods of doping are better detected.



Where have I ever ignored it? You're pessimism has colored your view.

You have quantitatively ignored it. Under certain circumsntances we can all be cheats, especially where there is a culture of cheating.


Perhaps in the world of cycling it gets dopers because the authorities have done little to dissuade the situation.

True. And it has caught so many. That doesn't mean that the doping fight will not go on forever. Yet I doubt that even cycling has done enough against doping.
To start with from the very clyclists that do not dope. Probably the fact that they are a minority does not help their cause.

When I see a drastic drop in average speed I may change my mind about the state of the sport.

 

[hrotha]

Exactly. It is risible for Pereiro to complain about other sports when the Spanish authorities have done everything in their power to protect cycling in the face of continual scandals and massive amounts of evidence. Despite getting access to a only small portion of the evidence, Italy actually prosecuted a few of those involved in OP. Spain's "investigation" amounted to nothing.

The point is that the Spanish authorities used cycling as a scapegoat to make sure they didn't have to probe into other sports (particularly football) after Puerto.

As for your previous post, the context of Pereiro's outburst has already been explained: it was a football TV show. And it wasn't just Mancebo and Sevilla who got blacklisted - just look at what happened to pretty much everyone who wasn't either Valverde or a Liberty youngling. The key point is that no one wanted to get rid of the whole top caste of Spanish cycling while erradicating those who were to replace them at the same time. That's what saved the likes of Contador, Valverde and LLS, but someone like Pereiro wouldn't have been so lucky, just like others like Guti weren't.

 

[Albatros]

Exactly. It is risible for Pereiro to complain about other sports when the Spanish authorities have done everything in their power to protect cycling in the face of continual scandals and massive amounts of evidence. Despite getting access to a only small portion of the evidence, Italy actually prosecuted a few of those involved in OP. Spain's "investigation" amounted to nothing.

He complains about other sports because only cycling gets stick from the media and the majority of fans. That is the only point where I sympathize with him. From the Spanish authorities they all get the same protection.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So, where's the Spanish protection for Roberto Heras?

If Pereiro cares so much about doping then he should man up like FLandis.

I seem to recall FLandis only manning up when his life had completely fallen to pieces and he was facing court indictments and living in a shack.

Óscar Pereiro is still in the position where he can be invited to talk on relatively mainstream sports shows, ostensibly not to talk about doping (though they managed to goad him into it). FLandis wouldn't have manned up if he was still doing all right from the sport.

 

[GotDropped]

The point is that the Spanish authorities used cycling as a scapegoat to make sure they didn't have to probe into other sports (particularly football) after Puerto.

As for your previous post, the context of Pereiro's outburst has already been explained: it was a football TV show. And it wasn't just Mancebo and Sevilla who got blacklisted - just look at what happened to pretty much everyone who wasn't either Valverde or a Liberty youngling. The key point is that no one wanted to get rid of the whole top caste of Spanish cycling while erradicating those who were to replace them at the same time. That's what saved the likes of Contador, Valverde and LLS, but someone like Pereiro wouldn't have been so lucky, just like others like Guti weren't.

Scapegoat? Who was sancioned by the spanish authorities? The names got released because the press got a hold of them and did their homework. The Spanish authorities did their best to cover everything up. It would have been so easy to sort it out... DNA testing of bags and athletes, just like the Italians did. But they didn't. Not even with the cyclists. Pereiro has been protected by this very same system.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes, the gains differ along history getti ng bigger as the science of doping improves, and occasionally suffering a drawback when the prominent method or methods of doping are better detected.

Then you would be aware that there were times when it was possible and impossible to be competitive. Which shows the obvious flaws in your argument in calling them all dopers.

You have quantitatively ignored it. Under certain circumsntances we can all be cheats, especially where there is a culture of cheating.

If I had ignored it you would be able to show it instead of making up something that is irrelevant.

True. And it has caught so many. That doesn't mean that the doping fight will not go on forever. Yet I doubt that even cycling has done enough against doping.
To start with from the very clyclists that do not dope. Probably the fact that they are a minority does not help their cause.

When I see a drastic drop in average speed I may change my mind about the state of the sport.

Now you are saying that there are riders who do not dope - good to see your pessimism lifting.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Scapegoat? Who was sancioned by the spanish authorities? The names got released because the press got a hold of them and did their homework. The Spanish authorities did their best to cover everything up. It would have been so easy to sort it out... DNA testing of bags and athletes, just like the Italians did. But they didn't. Not even with the cyclists. Pereiro has been protected by this very same system.

Pereiro has nothing to do with Puerto. He was likely a Losa client.

When the names were released, the ones that were released were ALL cyclists. The Spanish authorities may have avoided banning people and may have covered things up, but the things that got leaked were selective leaks. Only the cyclists got named. It was a marriage of convenience. The only reputations that got sullied were those from a sport whose reputation was already sullied. If the press got a hold of the names from another source, and given that Fuentes himself has stated there were 130 or so names on there, only a quarter of which have come out, and that he was incredulous that only cyclists are named, then one has to question why only those names belonging to cyclists came out. Were the press incapable of doing their homework when it came to people not involved in cycling? Were the press in on covering it up for every sport but cycling? Or were the leaks selective to protect the reputation of everybody but cyclists they had no intention of sanctioning?

 

[GotDropped]

So, where's the Spanish protection for Roberto Heras?

Glad you mentioned Roberto Heras... our friend wikipedia again:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Heras#Dopaje

"En el 2011 la justicia ordinaria dio la razón al corredor quedando anulado su positivo por diferentes irregularidades en el tratamiento de las pruebas y en la realización de los análisis."

So, in 2011, 6 years after being stripped of his Vuelta title for being positive for EPO with both the A and B samples, and 6 years after the UCI stripped him of his vuelta title and everything seemed buried and forgotten, a Spanish court disregarded the positive test for different irregularities and therefor proved Roberto Heras to be innocent...

 

[ultimobici]

Scapegoat? Who was sancioned by the spanish authorities? The names got released because the press got a hold of them and did their homework. The Spanish authorities did their best to cover everything up. It would have been so easy to sort it out... DNA testing of bags and athletes, just like the Italians did. But they didn't. Not even with the cyclists. Pereiro has been protected by this very same system.

Not quite. The press broke the cycling part of the story but lost their nerve when it came to calling out their football they lost their appetite for blood. One can only surmise that they realised that they'd be killing the golden goose.

 

[GotDropped]

Pereiro has nothing to do with Puerto. He was likely a Losa client.

When the names were released, the ones that were released were ALL cyclists. The Spanish authorities may have avoided banning people and may have covered things up, but the things that got leaked were selective leaks. Only the cyclists got named. It was a marriage of convenience. The only reputations that got sullied were those from a sport whose reputation was already sullied. If the press got a hold of the names from another source, and given that Fuentes himself has stated there were 130 or so names on there, only a quarter of which have come out, and that he was incredulous that only cyclists are named, then one has to question why only those names belonging to cyclists came out. Were the press incapable of doing their homework when it came to people not involved in cycling? Were the press in on covering it up for every sport but cycling? Or were the leaks selective to protect the reputation of everybody but cyclists they had no intention of sanctioning?

We don't know if he did, or didn't have anything to do with puerto because as you said, of the 130 or so names only a cuarter have come out. We will never know... but Pereiro sure as hell knows. But puerto wasn't the only place to dope yourself in Spain. So, whether or not he was involved in puerto is regardless, the puerto case is just an indication of how doping is tolerated and covered up in Spain. One thing is for sure, if Oscar Pereiro was a clean rider, his opinions would be very diferent than the ones he has now. He would be disgusted with riders like Valverde for ruining his career and stealing his results... but he is not, because he is just as guilty as the rest of them.