State of Peloton 2023

[Netserk]

Notice how 2020 wasn't very fast? This year almost tied it for most elevation gain of recent GTs.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1683213753662464001

View: https://twitter.com/velofacts/status/1683213753662464001

 

[Rob5091]

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...stonishing-criticism-of-tour-de-france-winner
(Michel) "Wuyts also references the questions raised by Vingegaard's dominance as a few have begun to raise questions of doping. "Given the history of this sport, it is right that questions are asked. Especially if someone drives 4.5 seconds per kilometre faster than the closest opponent in a time trial," says the Belgian. "But add up all the details that make up those striking differences and you'll almost get there. The only question mark remains the medical support. Teams have also taken steps in recovery resources. It would be nice if they showed how they get their riders to the start as fresh as possible every day."

Yeah, the recovery processes would be very interesting to know (and I mean more then the ice tub!).

 

[Riek s]

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...stonishing-criticism-of-tour-de-france-winner
(Michel) "Wuyts also references the questions raised by Vingegaard's dominance as a few have begun to raise questions of doping. "Given the history of this sport, it is right that questions are asked. Especially if someone drives 4.5 seconds per kilometre faster than the closest opponent in a time trial," says the Belgian. "But add up all the details that make up those striking differences and you'll almost get there. The only question mark remains the medical support. Teams have also taken steps in recovery resources. It would be nice if they showed how they get their riders to the start as fresh as possible every day."

Yeah, the recovery processes would be very interesting to know (and I mean more then the ice tub!).

And they always compare to Pogacar as if he is the beacon of light... (The same questions apply to him as well. They are comparing to another mutant to justify the first one)
Check against WVA, who is in the same team, has the same "details" and was 8s/km slower.

Well at least the statement 'the only question mark remains the medical support' can be interpreted in a few ways.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

I've enjoyed reading David Walsh's daily reports from the TDF this year, and have linked a couple in the forum. But reading his summary of the tour I couldn't help thinking of this thread.

Full article (paywall): https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tour-de-france-jonas-vingegaards-generation-offer-clean-break-from-murky-past

- He mentions chatting to a couple of other journalists, who have been under pressure from their editors to "express scepticism" about the TT. They chose not to do so as they "didn’t feel scepticism".
- He compares it to the widespread suspicions around Armstrong in 1999.
- Describes the police raids on Bahrain in recent years, supposedly originating from a piece in Le Parisien.
- Explains that Vin has been tested a lot, and that for he and Pog "everything they do is in line with what they’ve done before".
- When someone in the comments expresses some doubt about the level in the race, and the possibility that Vin and Pog "started young", Walsh responds with a comparison to Armstrong and the growing body of evidence back then.

Anyway, if anyone is interested, here are a couple of extracts:

It made me think of 1999, the day after Lance Armstrong’s dominant performance in Sestriere. Speaking to my then sports editor, Alex Butler, I told of my misgivings and listed the reasons why Armstrong’s performances couldn’t be believed. EPO, the drug of choice in the peloton during these years, was still undetectable, Le Monde journalist Benoît Hopquin was working on a story that the UCI had covered a positive test for Armstrong and the French rider Christophe Bassons was telling anyone prepared to listen that doping was still rife in the peloton. Bassons didn’t ask for anonymity.
Hearing my scepticism, the sports editor wasn’t exactly euphoric. “You really think he’s doping after coming back from cancer?” “Yes,” I said. “Well, if that’s what you believe, that’s what you’ve got to write,” he said matter of factly.
You see 24 years ago there was disappointment that the guy in the Yellow Jersey was cheating. Now, in some quarters, the belief that the maillot jaune is clean is greeted with disappointment. The second reaction is of course born out of the first. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
No one, though, comes up with a scintilla of evidence that Vingegaard, Pogacar or any of today’s generation are cheating. Ouest France, a high-circulation regional newspaper, published a story last week that quoted a number of anonymous sources saying Vingegaard’s performances were too good to be trusted. Nobody can be that good, was the thrust of the argument.
The only source quoted in the piece offered a different view. Asked about the time difference between Vingegaard and his nearest rival, he said: “I wasn’t expecting it, the gap is incredible, but that doesn’t make me uneasy.” The Ouest France piece read like long-form Twitter.

COMMENTS
J Wolfenden
You say there is no suspicion about their performance and there was with Armstrong, but why is this different?
I suspect they are producing significantly better outputs than Lance in his prime - does 20yrs development of legal sports science beat the illegal sports science of 20yrs ago?
I get your Pog and Jonas are performing at the level they always have, but that doesn’t seem a bonafide reason they can’t be doping - maybe just that they started young?
Hate to be so sceptical… but, cycling….

Hi J,
The reasons for the disbelief about LA in 1999 were manifold. For example he’d ridden the Tour 4 times before 1999 and never been remotely competitive in time trials or mountain stages. The most powerful drug Epo was undetectable in 1999 and we knew the UCI had covered up an LA positive test from the first day of the 1999 Tour. Then once you started asking questions, witnesses with inside knowledge of LA’s doping came forward. Betsy and Frankie Andreu, Emma O’Reilly, Stephen Swart, Greg and Kathy LeMond, Mike Anderson. There were other informants who offered up valuable information but wanted their names kept out of the story. About today’s generation, there hasn’t been one witness with anything that could be considered as evidence of doping. So in my view the differences between then and now are stark.
Best,
David.

 

[saganftw]

this kind of "journalism" reminds of how you will have reports of missing government money, but since no evidence is found nobody questions it

...yeah but the money is still missing

whether their program is so advanced nobody can detect it, or its so corrupt nobody wants to detect it, they are still producing at impossible levels, do people realize that cyclists today could hang in EPO fueled peloton just fine? and we know its not just "recovery" and "not drinking beer" because we still have pros who dont perform nowhere near those levels...unless ice bath havent been invented in France, those "normal" pros with access to same recovery techniques are not even remotely close, how does that work? how do these clean marginal gains amount to this massive difference at the top of the sport? are other teams just stupid?

 

[zlev11]

Walsh was also vouching for Landis after stage 17 2006 because "he actually had a bad day in the Tour" or whatever. he is a clueless moron. he got lucky that Lance was the most obvious doper of all-time that wasn't British. everything goes back to that one day on Sestrieres, 1999 with him, the one day he was ever right about anything.

 

[iceblink]

Walsh was also vouching for Landis after stage 17 2006 because "he actually had a bad day in the Tour" or whatever. he is a clueless moron. he got lucky that Lance was the most obvious doper of all-time that wasn't British. everything goes back to that one day on Sestrieres, 1999 with him, the one day he was ever right about anything.

Oh wow, there were so many dopers in history of cycling but you think likes of Froome and Wiggins were the most obvious dopers of all-time.

Here's some better clues for you: Pogacar Belles Filles TT 2020, Vingegaard Domancy TT 2023, Dumoulin Bergen TT 2017, Alapilippe Pau TT 2019 (with wild crazy eyes at the finish for emphasis), Roglic Tokyo TT 2020

There, I made it so much easier for you

 

[Hugh Januss]

Oh wow, there were so many dopers in history of cycling but you think likes of Froome and Wiggins were the most obvious dopers of all-time.

Here's some better clues for you: Pogacar Belles Filles TT 2020, Vingegaard Domancy TT 2023, Dumoulin Bergen TT 2017, Alapilippe Pau TT 2019 (with wild crazy eyes at the finish for emphasis), Roglic Tokyo TT 2020

There, I made it so much easier for you

Only one has tested positive, so therefor only one has "doped".

 

[Alexandre B.]

State of peloton 2023? (Jumbo/UAE especially)

 

[sam6]

This Lopez thing worries me a lot. They clearly have near proof that he is a doper but he has never failed a test. There is no way Astana would have kicked him out or UCI banned him if there wasn't compelling evidence against him. But he hasn't had a positive test. This shows that the tests they do are not effective and he has got past them. And if he has got past them, it seems almost certain other riders have too. If he had failed a test, this would actually reassure me as it would show the testing system is good but being banned without testing positive shows the system is floored and likely better riders are also doping

 

[zlev11]

Oh wow, there were so many dopers in history of cycling but you think likes of Froome and Wiggins were the most obvious dopers of all-time.

Here's some better clues for you: Pogacar Belles Filles TT 2020, Vingegaard Domancy TT 2023, Dumoulin Bergen TT 2017, Alapilippe Pau TT 2019 (with wild crazy eyes at the finish for emphasis), Roglic Tokyo TT 2020

There, I made it so much easier for you

what about Geraint Thomas, TDF 2018? sounds like you think anyone who wins a race that isn't British must be doping.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

lol, yeah Thomas went up a mountain at 7 watts and won the tour de france by 7 minutes.

what the *** are you talking about?

I gave 5 clear examples of time trials where the winner was clearly doped to the gills. I'm not even british (in fact if you knew my nationality you would laugh that I "protect" british riders)

These riduclous time trials are cheating in plain site, and this joke of a forum has shot its load for several years over a powerful boring sky train dominating one race.

I mean YOU and almost everone else here are *** pathetic (literally, in the sense of sadness and non-literally in the sense of *** pathetic)

There are more civilized and elegant ways to strongly disagree with someone.

But disregarding the form, I have a question: you have reasons for your list I presume. I am not going to ask about PdBF, but what's the standout quality in these TTs that makes you say it is cheating in plain sight? And before your blood starts boiling: I am asking because I want to know, not because I want to disagree or be unhappy about Sky.

 

[Peter von]

This Lopez thing worries me a lot. They clearly have near proof that he is a doper but he has never failed a test. There is no way Astana would have kicked him out or UCI banned him if there wasn't compelling evidence against him. But he hasn't had a positive test. This shows that the tests they do are not effective and he has got past them. And if he has got past them, it seems almost certain other riders have too. If he had failed a test, this would actually reassure me as it would show the testing system is good but being banned without testing positive shows the system is floored and likely better riders are also doping

Yeah maybe.

Tho I will say; testing can never stand alone you have to conduct investigations as well.
There are a lot of substances and testing is difficult and you have to keep up with what the kids are currently using. It’s easy to test for individual substances if you know what you are looking for.

so in that sense I think it is a positive that they catch some fishes through that as well. Reading UCI statements is also reads like they have been having closer looks at his previously collected samples from the Giro.

Not that I am optimistic Lopez is a lone wolf.

 

[Red Rick]

The thing that stands out to me the most is cycling media only really talk about doping in terms of individuals. Everyone else is presumed completely cleanz.

Secondly, there's guys like Armstrong, and other former dopers who have been through the ringer, and they're barely asking questions themselves, or thay are doing the same. It's like there's a social contract you can only ask questions about individuals, not when everyone is doing performances that would tear the 2010 guys a new one.

 

[Nick2413]

It seems to work itself out in the wash. Anyone still in the cycling industry in any way (like Armstrong) would only lose by calling out the mass doping, and anyone not in the cycling realm anymore isn’t relevant enough for anyone to care anyway.

 

[nayr497]

For me, when a guy as good as Mohoric says he barely was hanging on during most stages...yeah, that tells me they're on some serious jet fuel right now.

 

[magliaroz]

For me, when a guy as good as Mohoric says he barely was hanging on during most stages...yeah, that tells me they're on some serious jet fuel right now.

Of course, he doesn't mention that his struggles started after Bahrain Victorious got a "friendly warning" to calm down with their special protein shakes.

BV making donkeys fly (Caruso, Colbrelli, Padun), the police raids and their consequent decline in results is the biggest indirect proof of doping we have in recent years.

What I wonder is why Jumbo and UAE are not getting the same treatment. More power and money?

 

[Mayomaniac]

Of course, he doesn't mention that his struggles started after Bahrain Victorious got a "friendly warning" to calm down with their special protein shakes.

BV making donkeys fly (Caruso, Colbrelli, Padun), the police raids and their consequent decline in results is the biggest indirect proof of doping we have in recent years.

What I wonder is why Jumbo and UAE are not getting the same treatment. More power and money?

I mean, Caruso still got 4th in the Giro this year, he's still up there. Colbrelli turning into the Italian Van Aert and almost dropping 2021 Masnada on muritos in the NC was something else, not to mention the sudden watts explosion that occured with Padun...

 

[Aimar16]

For me, when a guy as good as Mohoric says he barely was hanging on during most stages...yeah, that tells me they're on some serious jet fuel right now.

Didn't he win the fastest (49.13 km/h) stage in the Tour?

 

[Rob5091]

Didn't he win the fastest (49.13 km/h) stage in the Tour?

Indeed he did and in week 3 when everyone was tired ...

 

[Aimar16]

Indeed he did and in week 3 when everyone was tired ...

Anyway, I like Moho, he races intelligently which can be appreciated

 

[Tim Cahill]

Considering a lesser-form Jack Haig podiumed the Vuelta that year I was a bit upset he crashed out of The Tour and we weren't treated to the comedy of seeing him go toe-to-toe with Pogacar in the mountains. Hasn't fallen off a cliff with a few solid results but hasn't been quite the same since 2021 unfortunately.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

What I wonder is why Jumbo and UAE are not getting the same treatment. More power and money?

As I understand it the raids were ordered by a French instruction judge (equivalent of a prosecutor) for a preliminary investigation : I suppose opening a case was based on something (and not just estimated watt outputs and eye test ) to justify the expenditure of French and Danish police manhours. What the something may be hasn't been made public but according to police sources dated back to the year prior. I would surmise at the very least an anonymous denunciation, or maybe a lead of some sort, someone witnessing pharma packages being discarded, the team or some employees being connected to doping networks... ? Maybe police ran some surveillance ? Having a second raid months after and just before the Tour maybe imply the investigation thought they'd find something at that particular date and place ?
Doping in cycling being a high profile issue since the late 90s I wouldn't be surprised police (or gendarmerie in that case) ran checks periodically on it. Seems the French coppers that did the raid are part of a force dedicated to public health matters.

That's a long winded way to say that justice authorities generally don't implicate themselves purely on a whim. Maybe there was a trigger event, or some sort of smoke, that was there for BV and not for JV or UAE.

I suppose it could be political and French justice wanted to scare straight BV (and everyone else) for other motives.

 

[Ricco']

Wasn't the Bahrain raid done following some actions by Vayer and a journo, or was that all a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory?

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

Wasn't the Bahrain raid done following some actions by Vayer and a journo, or was that all a conspiracy theory about a conspiracy theory?

Lot of internet drama involving them and shady aliases but I don't think it's been confirmed he had an influence on the investigation.