Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

I understood the context, but what you and the other poster claimed was factually incorrect despite the other poster constantly moving the goalposts. So I guess you guys are angry about something..

First claim: Pog absolutely a smoke MvdP at Flanders basically a head-to-head time trial - not true, gained 10 seconds over 13 kilometres.
Second claim: OK, but there was a moto in front of MvdP - not true, at this point there was no moto in front of MvdP, before Paterberg got a little help
Third claim: OK, but then Pog should have been tired and still gained time - again, MvdP only got moto help for a short time, and after Paterberg there was almost always a moto in front of Pogacar, and never in front of MvdP



Surely, it would be ridiculous to claim that Pogacar was in god mode in March and beat the Tour version of Vingegaard.



I don't understand which part is not normal. A one-day race or stage-race is the same thing, a bike race. You are either good at cycling or you are not. If you are good, it's just a question of whether you want to win or not. Remco also wins monuments and other one-day races, as does Roglic. People have become very narrow-minded under the dominance of Armstrong and SkyBots which seems to be the approach that Vingegaard is taking, fortunately others like Remco and Pog are on a different path. By the way, Pog only beat MvdP once in a one-day race when it counted. MvdP beat him in Milan-Sanremo, Strade Bianche, last year on Flanders....

and people should be chill about Paris-Nice. Even Gaudu finished ahead of Vingegaard. In the first mountain stage, Vingagaard finished with the likes of Vauquelin and Paret-Peintre. Enough said. Whatever the reason Vingegaard was there, the goal was certainly not to win. When you talk about the stage-race monster you are confusing Vingegaard with Roglic imo

Frankly, because of Armstrong and Skybots, the ability to win in classics, stage races and GTs brings the sport back to the early 80s and before. Since then doping and performance science has made it nigh impossible to win what these guys are winning throughout the year. So either they are that talented or there is a new arms race taking over the scene.

 

[Aimar16]

Vingegaard blew up trying to follow Pogacar when he finished with Vauquelin.

I am sure that he was trying to win.

Edit: watching the highlights on youtube Vingegaard was actually the first to attack on Loge des Gardes

Edit 2: obviously the Paris-Nice Vingegaard was not the best Vingegaard, but I think he did try to win

I don't know. Surely Jumbo knew before the race what Vingegaard was capable of, if they thought they could win with that performance they must be extremely arrogant. When Mader dropped Vingegaard towards the end, his face looked like he wanted to die. The whole team was also strange, not a single climber apart from Vingegaard, completely focused on the TTT. Where they didn't even use their full potential, as several teammates finished the stage with Vingegaard.

I think they were just testing here and fine-tuning the stuff that will make him unstoppable throughout the Tour. If it's true that they decided to do a Tour-Vuelta double back in the winter, he's had a full software upgrade, which worked out well given the Tour result.

Frankly, because of Armstrong and Skybots, the ability to win in classics, stage races and GTs brings the sport back to the early 80s and before. Since then doping and performance science has made it nigh impossible to win what these guys are winning throughout the year. So either they are that talented or there is a new arms race taking over the scene.

Many GC contenders or stage racers have also competed and won classics in the recent past. So there is nothing new in what Pogacar is doing. Of course, the cobbled classic win is completely new for a GC guy, but I think it's because the others didn't want to risk so much because of the injury risk. And it was not the lack of talent that made it so rare.

 

[Ripper]

I don't know. Surely Jumbo knew before the race what Vingegaard was capable of, if they thought they could win with that performance they must be extremely arrogant. When Mader dropped Vingegaard towards the end, his face looked like he wanted to die. The whole team was also strange, not a single climber apart from Vingegaard, completely focused on the TTT. Where they didn't even use their full potential, as several teammates finished the stage with Vingegaard.

I think they were just testing here and fine-tuning the stuff that will make him unstoppable throughout the Tour. If it's true that they decided to do a Tour-Vuelta double back in the winter, he's had a full software upgrade, which worked out well given the Tour result.



Many GC contenders or stage racers have also competed and won classics in the recent past. So there is nothing new in what Pogacar is doing. Of course, the cobbled classic win is completely new for a GC guy, but I think it's because the others didn't want to risk so much because of the injury risk. And it was not the lack of talent that made it so rare.

So, is your premise that we know exactly what Pogoman's capacity is this year and he simply will never be able to beat the Tour version of Vigoman because of the V man's doping regimen? And that Pogoman was not pogo-stomping through the spring?

 

[Aimar16]

So, is your premise that we know exactly what Pogoman's capacity is this year and he simply will never be able to beat the Tour version of Vigoman because of the V man's doping regimen? And that Pogoman was not pogo-stomping through the spring?

Clearly there are two methods here. Whatever Pog takes, it allows him to compete at a very high standard throughout the year. While Vingegaard's performance has fluctuated and he needs build up, but yes, I don't think Vingegaaard's high is achievable for Pog.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Surely, it would be ridiculous to claim that Pogacar was in god mode in March and beat the Tour version of Vingegaard.

I’m not claiming that. I’m stating Vinge was in better shape than you and others are giving him credit for because he lost. If Pog wasn’t there, he very well could have won over Gaudu as he wouldn’t have been going so hard trying to crack Pog and end up cracking himself in the process. Vinge went into the race confident and believing he’d win until his attacks didn’t drop them. He lost, the only time he lost when he looked dominant everywhere else.

 

[Red Rick]

I’m not claiming that. I’m stating Vinge was in better shape than you and others are giving him credit for because he lost. If Pog wasn’t there, he very well could have won over Gaudu as he wouldn’t have been going so hard trying to crack Pog and end up cracking himself in the process. Vinge went into the race confident and believing he’d win until his attacks didn’t drop them. He lost, the only time he lost when he looked dominant everywhere else.

Zeeman has said the watts were low in Paris-Nice, even Pogacars outsdie of Col d'Eze.

 

[Ripper]

Clearly there are two methods here. Whatever Pog takes, it allows him to compete at a very high standard throughout the year. While Vingegaard's performance has fluctuated and he needs build up, but yes, I don't think Vingegaaard's high is achievable for Pog.

While different methods is plausible, it is overly simplistic to think it is just that. It could be just as much because they are different people, and not everyone physically can maintain a level through the year.

We also quite frankly have no way of knowing that Pogoman could never match Vingoman's Tour "high", we only know that he did not match it this year, and that he also had poor preparation for the Tour, which has been discussed quite heavily in regard to how that would affect his performance. It seems you have negative perceptions based on who your favorite is and the outcome of the race.

I think they are both quite the extraterrestrials, and obviously individuals with different constitutions and strengths. It would be nice to see them both line up in a grand tour with equal preparation, as I am certain, all things considered, that Pogoman was on track to be better than last year.

 

[topcat]

While different methods is plausible, it is overly simplistic to think it is just that. It could be just as much because they are different people, and not everyone physically can maintain a level through the year.

We also quite frankly have no way of knowing that Pogoman could never match Vingoman's Tour "high", we only know that he did not match it this year, and that he also had poor preparation for the Tour, which has been discussed quite heavily in regard to how that would affect his performance. It seems you have negative perceptions based on who your favorite is and the outcome of the race.

I think they are both quite the extraterrestrials, and obviously individuals with different constitutions and strengths. It would be nice to see them both line up in a grand tour with equal preparation, as I am certain, all things considered, that Pogoman was on track to be better than last year.

While I’m not a fan of either (I would like both removed from the sport), I would have a slight preference for Pog over Vingo. I believe Pog cannot match Vingo’s peak. I won’t know it for a fact until it happens or doesn’t happen.

 

[Extinction]

I don't know. Surely Jumbo knew before the race what Vingegaard was capable of, if they thought they could win with that performance they must be extremely arrogant. When Mader dropped Vingegaard towards the end, his face looked like he wanted to die. The whole team was also strange, not a single climber apart from Vingegaard, completely focused on the TTT. Where they didn't even use their full potential, as several teammates finished the stage with Vingegaard.

I think they were just testing here and fine-tuning the stuff that will make him unstoppable throughout the Tour. If it's true that they decided to do a Tour-Vuelta double back in the winter, he's had a full software upgrade, which worked out well given the Tour result.



Many GC contenders or stage racers have also competed and won classics in the recent past. So there is nothing new in what Pogacar is doing. Of course, the cobbled classic win is completely new for a GC guy, but I think it's because the others didn't want to risk so much because of the injury risk. And it was not the lack of talent that made it so rare.

To the bolded, there has not been a racer doing what Pog has done since Hinault, period. For three decades there has not been a Tour winner who can win monuments like that. So you are talking nonsense.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I don't understand which part is not normal. A one-day race or stage-race is the same thing, a bike race. You are either good at cycling or you are not. If you are good, it's just a question of whether you want to win or not.

You are completely wrong at that. If that was the case the best guys would be winning everything. Races specialization is a fact. There's a reason why MVP (great cyclist) doesn't win stage races and why Vinge (also great cyclist) isn't a monster in one-day races but does what is best for him (stage-races). Different physical characteristics are needed for various races: mountain stages, hilly one-day races or cobble races. Some guys are great at 30-minute w/kg efforts (climbing), some excel in 3 minute partially anaerobic efforts and recover quickly after that (hilly races), some have good endurance and recovery (very long classics or stage-races), some have large anaerobic capacity (good punch), some can maintain high absolute power and/or have good aerodynamics (TT-ist). Pogacar ticks almost all the boxes.

 

[Aimar16]

I’m not claiming that. I’m stating Vinge was in better shape than you and others are giving him credit for because he lost. If Pog wasn’t there, he very well could have won over Gaudu as he wouldn’t have been going so hard trying to crack Pog and end up cracking himself in the process. Vinge went into the race confident and believing he’d win until his attacks didn’t drop them. He lost, the only time he lost when he looked dominant everywhere else.

I do not agree with this. Stage 4 - Gaudu had a big lead when Pogacar attacked and Vingegaard couldn't keep up even with Pogacar. So he would never have caught Gaudu who finished with Pogacar. Vingegaard's 150m 'attack' didn't really matter imo. He just simply didn't have legs. Stage 7 - Gaudu finished ahead of Vingegaard again, Stage 8 - they finished together. It doesn't look to me like Vingegaard would have beaten Gaudu here without Pogacar.

While different methods is plausible, it is overly simplistic to think it is just that. It could be just as much because they are different people, and not everyone physically can maintain a level through the year.

We also quite frankly have no way of knowing that Pogoman could never match Vingoman's Tour "high", we only know that he did not match it this year, and that he also had poor preparation for the Tour, which has been discussed quite heavily in regard to how that would affect his performance. It seems you have negative perceptions based on who your favorite is and the outcome of the race.

I think they are both quite the extraterrestrials, and obviously individuals with different constitutions and strengths. It would be nice to see them both line up in a grand tour with equal preparation, as I am certain, all things considered, that Pogoman was on track to be better than last year.

It seemed to me that Pogacar was on full throttle for all three weeks, while Vingegaard was only running in power saving mode. If Vingegaard had really wanted to, he could have beaten Pogacar by a much bigger margin imo. I doubt if Pogacar can match that.

To the bolded, there has not been a racer doing what Pog has done since Hinault, period. For three decades there has not been a Tour winner who can win monuments like that. So you are talking nonsense.

Remco - GT winner, multiple monument winner
Rog - multiple GT winner, stage race monster, monument winner
Pinot - stage race winner, monument winner
Nibali - won all three GTs, three-time monument winner
Valverte - GT winner, stage race monster, classics monster, four-time monument winner, Road WC
Dan Martin - stage race winner, 2x monument winner
Purito - stage race winner, 2x monument winner
Vino - GT winner, stage race winner, 2x monument winner
Schleck - Tour winner, monument winner
Cunego - GT winner, 3x monument winner

Nibali and Schleck were before Hinault wasn't it?

You are completely wrong at that. If that was the case the best guys would be winning everything. Races specialization is a fact. There's a reason why MVP (great cyclist) doesn't win stage races and why Vinge (also great cyclist) isn't a monster in one-day races but does what is best for him (stage-races). Different physical characteristics are needed for various races: mountain stages, hilly one-day races or cobble races. Some guys are great at 30-minute w/kg efforts (climbing), some excel in 3 minute partially anaerobic efforts and recover quickly after that (hilly races), some have good endurance and recovery (very long classics or stage-races), some have large anaerobic capacity (good punch), some can maintain high absolute power and/or have good aerodynamics (TT-ist). Pogacar ticks almost all the boxes.

If Vingegaard were to show the same form at LBL or Lombardia as he did at the Tour, he would be one of the biggest favourites for the race. So it's not about lack of ability, it's about lack of will. I've just listed quite a few recent GT or stage-race winners who are also monument winners. So Pogacar is not alone...

 

[SHAD0W93]

I do not agree with this. Stage 4 - Gaudu had a big lead when Pogacar attacked and Vingegaard couldn't keep up even with Pogacar. So he would never have caught Gaudu who finished with Pogacar. Vingegaard's 150m 'attack' didn't really matter imo. He just simply didn't have legs. Stage 7 - Gaudu finished ahead of Vingegaard again, Stage 8 - they finished together. It doesn't look to me like Vingegaard would have beaten Gaudu here without Pogacar.



It seemed to me that Pogacar was on full throttle for all three weeks, while Vingegaard was only running in power saving mode. If Vingegaard had really wanted to, he could have beaten Pogacar by a much bigger margin imo. I doubt if Pogacar can match that.



Remco - GT winner, multiple monument winner
Rog - multiple GT winner, stage race monster, monument winner
Pinot - stage race winner, monument winner
Nibali - won all three GTs, three-time monument winner
Valverte - GT winner, stage race monster, classics monster, four-time monument winner, Road WC
Dan Martin - stage race winner, 2x monument winner
Purito - stage race winner, 2x monument winner
Vino - GT winner, stage race winner, 2x monument winner
Schleck - Tour winner, monument winner
Cunego - GT winner, 3x monument winner

Nibali and Schleck were before Hinault wasn't it?



If Vingegaard were to show the same form at LBL or Lombardia as he did at the Tour, he would be one of the biggest favourites for the race. So it's not about lack of ability, it's about lack of will. I've just listed quite a few recent GT or stage-race winners who are also monument winners. So Pogacar is not alone...

Vinge was 100% focused on Pog, without Pog there he isn’t worried about losing to him, Vinge doesn’t blow himself up, and his team controls Gaudu. To either he wins by a few seconds or Gaudu wins by a few seconds.

Vinge only went into energy saving mode the final stages. Otherwise he was at the front of the race every single stage until bare minimum the final kilometer. He also personally or his team put in huge digs on every stage with him behind them. Vinge looked tired after the second week and then miraculously looked brand new start of the third week.

Extinction was also referring to GC riders performing in the cobbled monuments at such a high level. Not GT riders winning the hilly classics in this case or Nibali with his MSR win.

I don’t ever remember Andy being photographed on the top step with his trophy.


Vinge would also need to do it over a crazy monument, which with the power shown is possible but still different than a stage race. His biggest strength his fans have been saying is his recovery and in a monument, everyone starts at a level field so to speak as in they weren’t racing more a week or two already. But if Jumbo showed up and just set a crazy pace I’m sure Vinge would finish on the podium.

 

[Extinction]

I do not agree with this. Stage 4 - Gaudu had a big lead when Pogacar attacked and Vingegaard couldn't keep up even with Pogacar. So he would never have caught Gaudu who finished with Pogacar. Vingegaard's 150m 'attack' didn't really matter imo. He just simply didn't have legs. Stage 7 - Gaudu finished ahead of Vingegaard again, Stage 8 - they finished together. It doesn't look to me like Vingegaard would have beaten Gaudu here without Pogacar.



It seemed to me that Pogacar was on full throttle for all three weeks, while Vingegaard was only running in power saving mode. If Vingegaard had really wanted to, he could have beaten Pogacar by a much bigger margin imo. I doubt if Pogacar can match that.



Remco - GT winner, multiple monument winner
Rog - multiple GT winner, stage race monster, monument winner
Pinot - stage race winner, monument winner
Nibali - won all three GTs, three-time monument winner
Valverte - GT winner, stage race monster, classics monster, four-time monument winner, Road WC
Dan Martin - stage race winner, 2x monument winner
Purito - stage race winner, 2x monument winner
Vino - GT winner, stage race winner, 2x monument winner
Schleck - Tour winner, monument winner
Cunego - GT winner, 3x monument winner

Nibali and Schleck were before Hinault wasn't it?



If Vingegaard were to show the same form at LBL or Lombardia as he did at the Tour, he would be one of the biggest favourites for the race. So it's not about lack of ability, it's about lack of will. I've just listed quite a few recent GT or stage-race winners who are also monument winners. So Pogacar is not alone...

Ridiculous is a nice diversionary tactic, however, none of the bolded qualifies for what Pog has done, nor anybody, I repeat, since Hinault. Apart from this, the Arab sheiks are spending billions on sport to divert from a gross deficiency in human rights.

 

[Aimar16]

Ridiculous is a nice diversionary tactic, however, none of the bolded qualifies for what Pog has done, nor anybody, I repeat, since Hinault. Apart from this, the Arab sheiks are spending billions on sport to divert from a gross deficiency in human rights.

Alright dude, the champion of the human rights, the brits finished 7th and 9th in the Roubaix with Thomas and Wiggins in the same group as cobbles legends Sagan, Cancellara and Boonen, which is a much better result than Pog could dream of

 

[meat puppet]

Aimar, come on. GC riders have been competitive in the hilly classics and occasionally even San Remo post Hinault. You are banging on an open door there. Pog however is also super competitive in the cobbled classics, such as RVV, which he won in a dominant fashion. This is new, no ifs no buts, and exactly this was also the obvious reference in the discussion.

 

[Extinction]

Clearly there are two methods here. Whatever Pog takes, it allows him to compete at a very high standard throughout the year. While Vingegaard's performance has fluctuated and he needs build up, but yes, I don't think Vingegaaard's high is achievable for Pog.

No it's the opposite.

 

[Extinction]

Vinge was 100% focused on Pog, without Pog there he isn’t worried about losing to him, Vinge doesn’t blow himself up, and his team controls Gaudu. To either he wins by a few seconds or Gaudu wins by a few seconds.

Vinge only went into energy saving mode the final stages. Otherwise he was at the front of the race every single stage until bare minimum the final kilometer. He also personally or his team put in huge digs on every stage with him behind them. Vinge looked tired after the second week and then miraculously looked brand new start of the third week.

Extinction was also referring to GC riders performing in the cobbled monuments at such a high level. Not GT riders winning the hilly classics in this case or Nibali with his MSR win.

I don’t ever remember Andy being photographed on the top step with his trophy.


Vinge would also need to do it over a crazy monument, which with the power shown is possible but still different than a stage race. His biggest strength his fans have been saying is his recovery and in a monument, everyone starts at a level field so to speak as in they weren’t racing more a week or two already. But if Jumbo showed up and just set a crazy pace I’m sure Vinge would finish on the podium.

And I think Pog is the new Roger de Vlaeminck, just with 49 years hindsight. Ok everybody shoot me!

 

[Aimar16]

Aimar, come on. GC riders have been competitive in the hilly classics and occasionally even San Remo post Hinault. You are banging on an open door there. Pog however is also super competitive in the cobbled classics, such as RVV, which he won in a dominant fashion. This is new, no ifs no buts, and exactly this was also the obvious reference in the discussion.

Dude. That's almost verbatim what I wrote in previous posts.

Many GC contenders or stage racers have also competed and won classics in the recent past. So there is nothing new in what Pogacar is doing. Of course, the cobbled classic win is completely new for a GC guy, but I think it's because the others didn't want to risk so much because of the injury risk. And it was not the lack of talent that made it so rare.

Cobbles or not, the climbs are perfect for Pogacar on the Tour of Flanders. So, it's not really surprising that he's doing well.

Pogacar winning Flanders is far, far less ridiculous than the Tour winning Brits being in the winning group in the flat cobbled classic with the biggest legends and only a well-timed attack separating them from victory. Although the fact that they won the Tour is a joke in itself

So now the British poster has started to respond to some of the older comments which have given nothing of value. Maybe that's what they call trolling

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If Vingegaard were to show the same form at LBL or Lombardia as he did at the Tour, he would be one of the biggest favourites for the race. So it's not about lack of ability, it's about lack of will. I've just listed quite a few recent GT or stage-race winners who are also monument winners. So Pogacar is not alone...

I give you Lombardy because it's good for climbers (still one day effort is different than stage races). But Flandres, Liege, Amstel, Strade, Fleche? Races completely different from Lombardy (all won by Pog). Vinge even didn't bother to go to Ardennes classics this year (the team had no leader so he could but it's not his cup of tea). It's not simply about will but about abilities (that I already explained in the previous post and won't repeat myself). The same was with Contador and Froome, stage race monsters but no achievements in classics. Obviosly abilities and will are connected - if you have lower abilities in some races then your will to take part is lower so you prioritize other events.

It's difficult to find another rider with such great classics abilities like Pog, who is able to fire 6.5 w/kg for half an hour at the end of a difficult stage or even distance Vingegaard (a climbing monster, maybe the best in this century) on a difficult Pyrenean stage. Such riders happen sometimes: it's not a norm but exception though. And they are among best ever.

 

[meat puppet]

Dude. That's almost verbatim what I wrote in previous posts.

OK. Then I wonder why make the peculiar list and I disagree about the reason you stated for why Pog does well.

Pog does not do well in cobbled races because fellow GC riders are risk averse. He does well because he combines a GC rider level aerobic capacity in a 65-70kg chassis with enough anaerobic oomph to run the Flanders hills with the big boys.

This combination has indeed been very rare in the past decades.

For a visualisation of the concept, compare Terpstra steamrolling Nibali on the uncategorised uphill after the Kruisberg in the 2018 RVV to Pog similarly riding MVDP off his wheel on the Kwaremont in the 2023 RVV.

 

[Aimar16]

I give you Lombardy because it's good for climbers (still one day effort is different than stage races). But Flandres, Liege, Amstel, Strade, Fleche? Races completely different from Lombardy (all won by Pog). Vinge even didn't bother to go to Ardennes classics this year (the team had no leader so he could but it's not his cup of tea). It's not simply about will but about abilities (that I already explained in the previous post and won't repeat myself). The same was with Contador and Froome, stage race monsters but no achievements in classics. Obviosly abilities and will are connected - if you have lower abilities in some races then your will to take part is lower so you prioritize other events.

It's difficult to find another rider with such great classics abilities like Pog, who is able to fire 6.5 w/kg for half an hour at the end of a difficult stage or even distance Vingegaard (a climbing monster, maybe the best in this century) on a difficult Pyrenean stage. Such riders happen sometimes: it's not a norm but exception though. And they are among best ever.

I'm struggling to understand your logic, mate. The last 4 LBL's have been won by 3 different GT winners, including the guy who won almost every major one-week stage race except the TdS

Pog similarly riding MVDP off his wheel on the Kwaremont in the 2023 RVV.

The most explosive climber in the whole peloton dropped a 75kg guy on a 2.6km climb. Unbelievable.

 

[meat puppet]

The most explosive climber in the whole peloton dropped a 75kg guy on a 2.6km climb. Unbelievable.

Referee 2 would be unimpressed with that revision.

 

[Aimar16]

Referee 2 would be unimpressed with that revision.

Revision? There is video footage of that.

By the way, MvdP overestimated its power on that day when it went nuclear at Kruisberg. He dropped WvA so that Pog wouldn't have to worry about him and he bridged to the Trentin group where Pog was able to rest before Kwaremont. Usual sharp MvdP tactics.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

What I'm getting from all this is that the only reason top GT contenders can't be favourites in any race they enter just like Pogacar is that they can't be bothered. Simple, debate over. Nothing to see here.

 

[Aimar16]

What I'm getting from all this is that the only reason top GT contenders can't be favourites in any race they enter just like Pogacar is that they can't be bothered. Simple, debate over. Nothing to see here.

Nibali finished 24th and 1:18 behind the winner in his first Flanders. Until 25km he was riding with all the favourites and basically initiated the winning attack. Despite not doing any preparation, any of the usual pre-Flanders build-up race, his last race was Milan-Sanremo and he was pretty much practicing for the cobbled stage of the Tour de France there. But still finished with teammates Colbrelli (Roubaix winner) and Haussler (2nd in Flanders). With proper preparation he could have easily stayed at least in the group of favourites with Sagan, Gilbert, van Avermaet, van Baarle... It was not just his first Flanders, it was his first cobbled classic. But folks are saying GC guy wouldn't stand a chance here...