Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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xcleigh said:
This is an interesting point. May I perhaps ask how you think the meeting with ASO went and what was discussed? Do you think Brailsford did brazenly tell ASO 'we are going to win your race, UCI are on board, we will be doping but don't worry it's all under control. Rest assured it won't be another Festina'. How do you feel ASO might have reacted to such a proposal?

I'm happy to countenance things happen behind the scenes we will never know about but would be interested to know exactly what you feel might be discussed at these meetings. I agree it causes reason to be inquisitive of such meetings but I do struggle to comprehend exactly how one would broach the matter of 'we'll be doping at your race and we'll win it'. Or do they (SKY) not mention that to ASO? One would have though a team telling them such things risks ASO calling them out on it. ASO/UCI aren't exactly bosom buddies as far as I know(?) so kicking SKY off the tour start roster could be a consequence of such a meeting with ASO could it not? As they may not buy in to the whole scheme/proposal? I'm just trying to get a scene in my head as to how this might all work as I genuinely can't quite work it out as yet.

Also, might I add, Pat doesn't do a good job of not focusing attention on the main characters of such a scheme, Wiggins and SKY. He is a plonker.

I can only guess what they presented to ASO, something along the lines of if Sky win the viewership figures of the Tdf and other ASO events in Sky media territories will rise.

Otherwise why does a cycling team do a presentation for, these are the bikes, this is the socks, the saddle creams, the bottles, the bar tape etc......
 

Joachim

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Libertine Seguros said:
It's hard to say which of these is the driving factor, or they may all be factors, or we may all just be paranoid, which too much time in the Clinic can do to you. However, Britain's rise to prominence in World cycling has coincided conveniently with a bunch of routes that suit their riders, with the downfall of another non-traditional nation of similar population and potential that had been riding high for the last 10-15 years - and that had a much stronger national scene of stage races that would make it easier for them to develop such talents, and McQuaid - a known corrupt politician - has been known to vocally support the continued success of British cycling.

How can he not support the success of British Cycling? It is emergent , he has to support it as part of the remit of his job.

Whichever way you look at it, GB's position in cycling is like the thin layer of ice on a lake. It is all off the back of GB track success, from which were born the two stars of GB cycling, Cavendish and Wiggins. That track success would not be there without the sudden injection of lots of cash, with continued funding contingent on success.

Before this, any GB involvement in the road scene was an anomaly, and the grass roots scene is a little thin. Even now, if you take Cavendish and Wiggins out of the equation, what else is there? (Froome doesn't count). Certainly the odd rider here and there but nothing like the bedrock of continental European riders.

Of Cavemdish and Wiggins, Cavendish will prove to be the enduring talent, I think. Wiggins stars were aligned this year. Maybe he'll pick up some smaller races next year, but I can't see him winning GTs.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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xcleigh said:
This is an interesting point. May I perhaps ask how you think the meeting with ASO went and what was discussed? Do you think Brailsford did brazenly tell ASO 'we are going to win your race, UCI are on board, we will be doping but don't worry it's all under control. Rest assured it won't be another Festina'. How do you feel ASO might have reacted to such a proposal?
open thou eyes. money talks
Benotti69 said:
I can only guess what they presented to ASO, something along the lines of if Sky win the viewership figures of the Tdf and other ASO events in Sky media territories will rise.
Indeed. This is how the game works ever since Hein took charge of it.

Benotti69 said:
Otherwise why does a cycling team do a presentation for, these are the bikes, this is the socks, the saddle creams, the bottles, the bar tape etc......
:D
 
Feb 20, 2010
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Joachim said:
How can he not support the success of British Cycling? It is emergent , he has to support it as part of the remit of his job.

Whichever way you look at it, GB's position in cycling is like the thin layer of ice on a lake. It is all off the back of GB track success, from which were born the two stars of GB cycling, Cavendish and Wiggins. That track success would not be there without the sudden injection of lots of cash, with continued funding contingent on success.

Before this, any GB involvement in the road scene was an anomaly, and the grass roots scene is a little thin. Even now, if you take Cavendish and Wiggins out of the equation, what else is there? (Froome doesn't count). Certainly the odd rider here and there but nothing like the bedrock of continental European riders.

Of Cavemdish and Wiggins, Cavendish will prove to be the enduring talent, I think. Wiggins stars were aligned this year. Maybe he'll pick up some smaller races next year, but I can't see him winning GTs.

There's supporting British cycling that is part of the remit of his job, and there's outright stating in the media that it would be good for British riders to win. I personally feel that suggesting that he would like Cavendish to win the Olympics and continue the incredible run of success for British riders overstepped that remit, but your mileage may vary.

Regards the middle bit, yes, it's slightly concerning that despite the big amount of recent success in Britain there is still very little in the way of a national calendar to point to, especially in the stage racing department. There are none of those .1 races that you saw crop up all over Germany yet (the Niedersachsen Rundfahrt, Sachsen Rundfahrt, Hessen Rundfahrt, Rothaus Regio Tour, Rheinland-Pfalzrundfahrt, plus all the one day races, excepting those long-standing ones like Frankfurt), and that you see all over Europe in Belgium, France, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands. Still, with mooted one-day events it looks like baby steps are being taken towards this. It seems like Britain still intends to luck into climbing and stage-racing talent like it did with Froome, since there's precious little real climbing races to be had. Maybe a genuine Tour of Wales or Tour of Scotland could rectify that.

Regards the last bit... Wiggins is already 32, no? His meteoric rise in the last two years (look at the insane y-axis on his CQ ranking score) has come just in time for peak years, so he may have a year or two left but he will start declining relatively soon, compared to the much younger Cavendish. Also, while Cavendish may start to lose top end speed relative to a new phenom it will perhaps be easier for him to adapt to outsmarting his competitors (like Ale-Jet before him, the only rider to have ever had any kind of luck beating Cavendish on a regular basis) than for an older Wiggins who is no longer able to rely on the brute strength tactic that Sky employed in his miracle year - on the plus side, guys like Leipheimer have shown you can keep your TT skills up for a long time and Wiggins, though pretty reliant on those at this point in time, may find himself leaning more and more heavily on time trialling in order to remain competitive.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
I can only guess what they presented to ASO, something along the lines of if Sky win the viewership figures of the Tdf and other ASO events in Sky media territories will rise.

Otherwise why does a cycling team do a presentation for, these are the bikes, this is the socks, the saddle creams, the bottles, the bar tape etc......

My exact point, you are guessing. Yes tell me why does a cycling do a presentation? How long does the presentation last, what do they talk about, do they sign agreements? They openly talking about doping to win? ASO are perfectly happy despite the obvious risk to their brand should this scheme come to light? And if as Sniper suggests money talks, whose making the money if Sky win?

Easier said than done?
 
Aug 28, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
I can only guess what they presented to ASO, something along the lines of if Sky win the viewership figures of the Tdf and other ASO events in Sky media territories will rise.

Otherwise why does a cycling team do a presentation for, these are the bikes, this is the socks, the saddle creams, the bottles, the bar tape etc......
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sky-meeting-with-aso-is-routine-team-says

There’s nothing unusual about professional cycling teams meeting with race organisers or sporting authorities, in fact it’s a regular occurrence for teams vying for wildcard places and WorldTour licences. It’s just rarely publicised.

However when a blog on Skysports let slip that the British team of Bradley Wiggins and Mark Cavendish had made a presentation to ASO ahead of this year’s Tour de France, it raised eyebrows – especially when the blog mentioned that part of the presentation was to ensure they ‘won't get any nasty surprises’.

Why would Team Sky need to justify their performances this season and why should they choose to present Bradley Wiggins’ power details and training data ahead of race he’d yet to start? In the subsequent 24 hours social media has been ablaze with innuendo and rumour, cultivating all from Sky’s success but also from the thickened air of suspicion cast by USADA investigation into Lance Armstrong and a motley crew of doctors. It was even alleged that Sky had made a donation to ASO for drug testing, a somewhat odd rumour considering ASO have never carried out a single drug test.

Sky’s meeting was no isolated incident though. They’ve presented in front of ASO since 2009, before their WorldTour licence had even confirmed, and according to a spokesperson for the team, training data, power profiles and clean competition was but one of the cornerstone of their showcase.

“We do it every year, and we actually meet with ASO twice a year. We started doing that in 2009 before we were really a team and we presented the five-year programme to them. We showed them what we wanted to do in terms of changing the face of the sport within the UK and then also showed them how the track programme had come about - our no stone unturned philosophy,” Sky’s spokesperson told Cyclingnews.

“We present everything on Sky Ride, our internal engagement, and then we also present where we are with performance and where we are from a coaching stance and the structure of the team.

“We used Brad as a case study because he’s a lead rider and won the Dauphine so we took them through all the work that we do with Tim Kerrison, Shane Sutton and with Brad. We weren’t called in and we didn’t call them and say ‘we want to prove Brad’s clean’.”

Team Sky is well aware that with success comes suspicion, and with a highly successful 2012 campaign levels of both are abundantly high.

“We felt it’s our job to be transparent and tell people what we’re doing, and the more we can tell people the less mystery there is. We’re not doing it to try and convince them we’re clean, we are clean. We’re meeting them because we’re genuinely proud of the work we doing and they enjoyed what we had to show them," their spokesperson explained.

“On the record, I can categorically and 100 percent deny that Team Sky has ever made any form of donation to any organisation involved with the running of the sport, nor would we ever do so.”
 
Oct 16, 2010
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xcleigh said:
My exact point, you are guessing. Yes tell me why does a cycling do a presentation? How long does the presentation last, what do they talk about, do they sign agreements? They openly talking about doping to win? ASO are perfectly happy despite the obvious risk to their brand should this scheme come to light?
Easier said than done?
does benotti69 look like he has a crystal friggin ball?
of course it's a guess, but a plausible one.

And if as Sniper suggests money talks, whose making the money if Sky win?
is this a serious question?
 

thehog

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MatParker117 said:

“We felt it’s our job to be transparent and tell people what we’re doing, and the more we can tell people the less mystery there is. We’re not doing it to try and convince them we’re clean, we are clean. We’re meeting them because we’re genuinely proud of the work we doing and they enjoyed what we had to show them," their spokesperson explained.

But they didn't tell the people. They only told ASO.

Crafty work by Sky.

Why can't they just be upfront and honest?
 
Jul 13, 2012
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sniper said:
does benotti69 look like he has a crystal friggin ball?
of course it's a guess, but a plausible one.


is this a serious question?



Plausible, seriously? Yeah course it is, I'm guessing he doesn't have a clue how it would actually work, the physical mechanics of such a scheme.
I'm telling everyone who matters that I'm going to dope to win the tour, yeah so simple.


Yep go on indulge me who makes the money and how? Just a guess will be fine.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Oct 16, 2010
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xcleigh said:
Plausible, seriously? Yeah course it is, I'm guessing he doesn't have a clue how it would actually work, the physical mechanics of such a scheme.
I'm telling everyone who matters that I'm going to dope to win the tour, yeah so simple.


Yep go on indulge me who makes the money and how? Just a guess will be fine.

"the physical mechanics of such a scheme?"
........
 
Jul 13, 2012
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sniper said:
"the physical mechanics of such a scheme?" ffs.
let me start: Sky representative's alarm clock rings, 4:00 am. Sky representative gets up. takes an early jet to france, gets out. takes a cab to ASO headquarters. rings the doorbell. is let into the building. opens his laptop. starts his presentation. people applaud. lunch time.

Oh ffs. Yeah really simple how could I be sooooo stupid. Sky just rock up 5 mins of we're going to dope to win tour. ASO say fine cheers see you in July. Job done . So SO simple.

Still haven't answered about the money?
 

thehog

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sniper said:
That is one stone left unturned right there.
Phat has no problems with donations from riders or teams.

The new donation is having sitting members on the UCI board. Much easier and much more clean than donations.
 

Joachim

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Dec 22, 2012
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I wonder if people think that Sky made a donation to the ASO before the 2011 Tour as well. You know, the one where Wiggins fell off and abandoned.

Interesting that people are conflating ASO with UCI in their desperate, spittle-flecked attempts to get 5 out of 2+2.

I love the attempts to elide an unsubstantiated rumour (fact in Clinic terminology) of a Sky donation to ASO before a race, with Armstrong's donation to the UCI.

You guys ought to turn your hands to writing fiction. Oh, you already have :D
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Now, something pro - Sky/Cavendish. Was just watching the Belgian year summary where Cavindish was quite hinting at some things going on in the Flandres races.

There must be other preparations at Sky. No surprise of course.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Money may or my not have changed hands. The UCI, ASO and Sky may just have worked out that a Wiggins win was beneficial to all parties. ASO and UCI get a winner who fits with the image they want to present and the country they want to market the sport to, Sky gets their name all over a historic british sporting success, and BC gets more good PR for Britain to tie in with the Olympics, which I suppose is their remit.

IMO the presentation would have been equivalent to checking they were all under 50% haemocrit. Guarantees may have been exchanged "If you're deniable, you won't have any tests back '+'.". I just wonder what happened with all the other teams - whether they were warned to knock it back or something, because it looks a bit like that from the outside.
 

Joachim

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Dec 22, 2012
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taiwan said:
Money may or my not have changed hands. The UCI, ASO and Sky may just have worked out that a Wiggins win was beneficial to all parties. ASO and UCI get a winner who fits with the image they want to present and the country they want to market the sport to, Sky gets their name all over a historic british sporting success, and BC gets more good PR for Britain to tie in with the Olympics, which I suppose is their remit.

All of this is, without question, true.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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@BP... Joachim, @Joachim it's plausible, at least. Constructing a favourable parcours is not enough to ensure the win though. Sky's top riders are not credible and I think they had protection to allow them o charge to Tour wining level. The only other explanation is that doping in the rest of the peloton has been brought to an abrupt halt and Sky were the only team not dependent on it. That's just too much to swallow, comparing Froome and Wiggins to their former selves.
 

thehog

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Wiggins/Froome rode the final ITT in 2012 faster than Lance 2005 and climbed a little slower than Rasmussen in 2007.

Serious numbers.
 

Joachim

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Dec 22, 2012
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taiwan said:
@BP... Joachim, @Joachim it's plausible, at least. Constructing a favourable parcours is not enough to ensure the win though. Sky's top riders are not credible and I think they had protection to allow them o charge to Tour wining level. The only other explanation is that doping in the rest of the peloton has been brought to an abrupt halt and Sky were the only team not dependent on it. That's just too much to swallow, comparing Froome and Wiggins to their former selves.

I don't think the win was ensured (assured). If you make the assumption that it was, then the win is *necessarily corrupt. That's a pretty big assumption to make as the first step in your argument, but it is a fallacy that abounds in this thread.

* necessary, employed here in its philosophical usage.

However, all of this is possible. Sky doping is possible, Sky buying off every cycling institution involved is possible.

Likely? No.

Possible? Yes.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Tony Martin just needs to stop being lazy and out of shape, then he can get up to 500 watts next year and have a chance against Lord Wiggins.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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thehog said:
Wiggins/Froome rode the final ITT in 2012 faster than Lance 2005 and climbed a little slower than Rasmussen in 2007.

Ho hum: Spot the minor difference.:rolleyes:





Still, never lets the facts get in the way of another dollop of Hoggie spin.