Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[roundabout]

Bernocchi is the sprinter race in the Trittico.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Bernocchi is the sprinter race in the Trittico.

Yes and I know climbing the Piccolo Stelvio a few times isn't quite like a 21 year old climbing the Stelvio.

I'll just give up and concede to this new rule that unless neo pros can't finish GT mountain stages ahead of their team leaders, they won't be able to climb a 3rd cat in towards the front of any race, when at the prime age.

Seems there a new vortex in town.

 

[BYOP88]

You may want to check my initial post. It says age 17: Junior P-R.

You can only wear rainbow bands in the discipline in which they were won,
as we all know.
So, the youngest starter and finisher of the 2007 Tour as a domestique, while winning a senior world title on the track.
At 21, Olympic champion, starts and finishes a tough Giro as a domestique and finished 5th in an "rolling" Italian semi classic.
This is all meaningless.

This started out as a debate about natural progression.
When talented riders mature and are given a chance to move up the ladder.
Yet it seems if you ride for Sky, but can't climb like young Nairo Quintana from day one, you should never be able to get over a speed bump.
That is the exception to the natural progression rule.

You may have said in your initial post, Junior P-R, but when I asked how many P-R's Phinney had won you answered

Taylor 2 Thomas 1.

which is incorrect.

So he was the youngest starter in the TdF, well someone in the race has to be the youngest and barring no one finishing the race there will always be a youngest finisher. Yes he did win a Senior world title on the track but track and road are different beasts, otherwise Theo Bos and Grégory Baugé would be elite road sprinters with green jerseys and boatloads of GT stage wins.

22 years old isn't that young for an Olympic champion. So he finished a "tough" Giro whilst being a domestique, I'm guessing he wasn't the first 22 year old to achieve that. 5th in a semi-classic!!!!! World Beater right there! So he finished 5th in an Italian semi-classic STFW! Harm Ottenbros must be one of the greatest cyclists ever then because he won the Worlds in 1969.

Sky do have a great success rate of (un)natural progression, turning donkeys into race horses since the end of 2010.
I mean what's your take on Froome's transformation from autobus to destroying busted and known dopers on climbs and beating world ITT champs in TT's whilst looking like an inmate from a concentration camp.
Also by your logic the guys that were 'climbing' with Thomas in 2007 and 2008 should also have progressed just like Thomas, I mean sure some of them might be bone idle bankers and runts and just taken the paycheck but I'm sure some of them actually work just as hard as Thomas.
Regarding climbing, do you not find it 'more believable' when a guy shows some ability at a young age instead of transforming later in their career?

 

[EnacheV]

So Thomas is another donkey that Sky transformed in world beater. And you ban Dr. Mas ? rofl

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sky rider rides well, he's a doper. Particularly if he's a British Sky rider, definitely a doper. I'm confident in G

 

[SundayRider]

Sky rider rides well, he's a doper. Particularly if he's a British Sky rider, definitely a doper. I'm confident in G

But less confident in Wiggo? He's been 'outed' by Floyd.

 

[the sceptic]

Sky rider rides well, he's a doper. Particularly if he's a British Sky rider, definitely a doper. I'm confident in G

Jimmy, just because they are british doesnt mean they must be dopers.

Take Wiggins for example. He now takes on turn on the front, and then goes straight out the back as soon as there is an incline on the road. Today I saw him on the back of the peloton, struggling to hang on. He looks credible to me now, I believe he could be clean.

 

[lllludo]

I think two issues cloud the Boardman question.

1) his link with Peter Keen, the original godfather of the British renaissance. Boardman was to all intents and purposes Keen's "proof of concept" for the rejuvenated high performance track squad, the first signing of which was one 19yo Bradley Wiggins.

If Boardman was dirty with Keen, it places the entire track program in a dangerous light, unless the argument is that a clean Boardman went to France, saw 'the way things were' and THEN joined in.

2) Obree. Pretty much matched Boardman in both IP and going for the hour, with less resources. And Obree has a solid record re: doping if anyone does.
The point being, if Obree could do it clean, then in theory there's no pure performance reason why boardman could not have done it clean either, at least the bits and at the times where they were in direct competition.

I haven't read the Gaumont book yet, only hearing stuff second hand from it. not sure my Year 5 french will be up to it, but Must chase it up, sounds interesting.

1) Boardman was a gold medalist at Barcelona in 1992 coached by Keen. He joined Legeay and GAN in 1993. In 1992-93 Legeay's team only bright spot was Duclos-Lassalle winning Paris-Roubaix so I'm not sure at all there was a EPO team doping ring at that time. IMO it's unlikely Boardman discovered EPO at GAN'93. According to some, he was already using it in Barcelona'92.
2) Obree ...how do we know Obree was clean ? Of course he has been vocal but we'll probably never know. If he was clean he was probably a superior athlete assisted by supeior technology

 

[Mellow Velo]

You may have said in your initial post, Junior P-R, but when I asked how many P-R's Phinney had won you answered which is incorrect.

My fault for not realising/recognising that you'd moved it on.
Hadn't entered my head, since the average age of a P-R winner is around 30 and I was talking about young riders naturally progressing.

He was the outstanding rider in the 2011 Tour of Flanders, as a domestique, which shows the relative early ability to manage short climbs.

So he was the youngest starter in the TdF, well someone in the race has to be the youngest and barring no one finishing the race there will always be a youngest finisher. Yes he did win a Senior world title on the track but track and road are different beasts, otherwise Theo Bos and Grégory Baugé would be elite road sprinters with green jerseys and boatloads of GT stage wins.

22 years old isn't that young for an Olympic champion. So he finished a "tough" Giro whilst being a domestique, I'm guessing he wasn't the first 22 year old to achieve that. 5th in a semi-classic!!!!! World Beater right there! So he finished 5th in an Italian semi-classic STFW! Harm Ottenbros must be one of the greatest cyclists ever then because he won the Worlds in 1969.

Sky do have a great success rate of (un)natural progression, turning donkeys into race horses since the end of 2010.
I mean what's your take on Froome's transformation from autobus to destroying busted and known dopers on climbs and beating world ITT champs in TT's whilst looking like an inmate from a concentration camp.
Also by your logic the guys that were 'climbing' with Thomas in 2007 and 2008 should also have progressed just like Thomas, I mean sure some of them might be bone idle bankers and runts and just taken the paycheck but I'm sure some of them actually work just as hard as Thomas.
Regarding climbing, do you not find it 'more believable' when a guy shows some ability at a young age instead of transforming later in their career?

I won't try to address the issues regarding swapping between two disciplines, mid season.
They wouldn't be considered relevant, if I did.

He's featuring in the GC battle in the flattest P-N just about ever.
So far, one 800 metre effort on a 3km hill.
This is a race that Tony Martin has won.
He will lose the jersey tomorrow and further seconds on Saturday.
He's never won a MTF. He's never won a hilly GC.
He's 3rd from last in a proper mountain train.

The "heated" portion of your post reads as if he's about to win the Tour, which is you progressing his climbing ability very unnaturally.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Jimmy, just because they are british doesnt mean they must be dopers.

Take Wiggins for example. He now takes on turn on the front, and then goes straight out the back as soon as there is an incline on the road. Today I saw him on the back of the peloton, struggling to hang on. He looks credible to me now, I believe he could be clean.

For now!! Let's see if there's a transformation. In the history of oxygen vector dopers, you have a few of them suffering in total anonymity most of the year. And then suddenly...

 

[BYOP88]

My fault for not realising/recognising that you'd moved it on.
Hadn't entered my head, since the average age of a P-R winner is around 30 and I was talking about young riders naturally progressing.

He was the outstanding rider in the 2011 Tour of Flanders, as a domestique, which shows the relative early ability to manage short climbs.



I won't try to address the issues regarding swapping between two disciplines, mid season.
They wouldn't be considered relevant, if I did.

He's featuring in the GC battle in the flattest P-N just about ever.
So far, one 800 metre effort on a 3km hill.
This is a race that Tony Martin has won.
He will lose the jersey tomorrow and further seconds on Saturday.
He's never won a MTF. He's never won a hilly GC.
He's 3rd from last in a proper mountain train.

The "heated" portion of your post reads as if he's about to win the Tour, which is you progressing his climbing ability very unnaturally.

Nothing 'heated' about my post. I never said or implied that he was going to win the TdF. I was surprised that he could climb well enough to put GC leaders of other teams under pressure. But that's my bad for not remembering he once finished 5th in a semi-classic in Italy.

For the bolded part can you post the links to the articles that state 'Thomas was the outstanding rider in the 2011 Tour of Flanders'. Thanks


Also where do you stand on Thomas and his love of Omertà?

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

For the bolded part can you post the links to the articles that state 'Thomas was the outstanding rider in the 2011 Tour of Flanders'. Thanks

It was on TV
Thomas was impressive indeed

 

[red_flanders]

Sky rider rides well, he's a doper. Particularly if he's a British Sky rider, definitely a doper. I'm confident in G

I'd be so much more interested in your POV if you could lose the nationalistic, defensive posture. No one gives a crap if they're British.

They get attacked because they're winning a LOT, some are putting in ridiculous performances, and they claim to be clean. Full stop.

Let it go.

 

[hiero2]

I'd be so much more interested in your POV if you could lose the nationalistic, defensive posture. No one gives a crap if they're British.

They get attacked because they're winning a LOT, some are putting in ridiculous performances, and they claim to be clean. Full stop.

Let it go.

+1. Now, I happen to believe they are riding clean - or at least legal per the WADA rules. But the doubting has nothing to do with nationality - it is the crazy performance values - and the "outstanding" performances.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Nothing 'heated' about my post. I never said or implied that he was going to win the TdF. I was surprised that he could climb well enough to put GC leaders of other teams under pressure. But that's my bad for not remembering he once finished 5th in a semi-classic in Italy.

For the bolded part can you post the links to the articles that state 'Thomas was the outstanding rider in the 2011 Tour of Flanders'. Thanks


Also where do you stand on Thomas and his love of Omertà?

Here you go. Check out this forum's 1900+ race thread from this point.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=12919&page=40

Remember the key phrase, "as a domestique", unlike Chavanel, who heroics hanging onto Cancellara's wheel rightly gets the nod.

Poignant that Craig 1985 post features, too.

I'm only debating the debatable: Whether Geraint is incapable of climbing a hill, or good enough to feature in the climbing we are seeing in Paris-Nice.
I think he's good enough to finish around the top 5, you seem to think outside the top 50?
On that, we clearly differ. One, or both of us failing to be objective.
As to how much pressure he (and of course Slagter) put folks under, I think you'll find that those other GC leaders are waiting for tomorrow.

Omertà, isn't what it used to be, if this place is anything to go by.
Irrelevant to debating ability.

 

[Benotti69]

the clinic seems irrelevant to some as they accept that the sport is a cesspit, others believe that clean teams can beat dirty teams and post continuos irrelevance trying to justify how it is possible.....

Velorooms started well till it became a massive Sky love fest.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

For what it's worth, Wiggo was doing ~560-580 W for his pursuit medals, at ~80kg.

Geraint is a much lighter trackie.

He tweeted some time ago that he just finished a set of 6 x 5" @ 560 W.

 

[martinvickers]

This is very true.
Boardman (and to a lesser extent Obree), paved the way for the whole lottery funding of British Track Cycling.

Thanks

The distinction I would draw is that Boardman was brought through what might be described as "the method" - highly funded, high tech, Olympic directed - by the man who would first implement that method at British Cycling.

Boardman had his eccentricities, but Obree was a far looser cannon, both personally, and in terms of alignment with BC.

Keen made the calculation, as Kelly might say. Far more medals in track - means far more state funding opportunity going forward, though, of course 92 notwithstanding, he could not have known the funding explosion that would come because of the GB debacle in Atlanta. Plus Keen was always pretty clear that success on the road involved too many risks and compromises. But once the funding came through post 96, Keen had 'the project' to show what could be done - and it can't be denied that GB has always punched above its weight in engineering, until very very recently (see F1 for example). Once Manchester got the commonwealth games, he also had the dedicated facilities that, really, only Australia matched (through Sydney).

there are plenty of 'dromes, of course, but remarkably few top tech olympic standard recent ones, in other 'hardcore' countries. I was stunned, for example, to hear how long it had been before the recent National Velodrome in Paris was built that they had had a top notch indoor 'drome. Of course us poor irish have none at all.

When Keen went to UKSport, cycling funding was secure for a generation - even if based heavily on a small number of individuals, primarily Hoy, Pendleton and Wiggins.

A remarkable set of 'lucky' circumstances, really - the 'project', followed by the 96 debacle and the lottery fundng, Manchester, Hoy, Wiggins and Pendleton in a batch. etc, etc, etc.

 

[martinvickers]

But less confident in Wiggo? He's been 'outed' by Floyd.

Floyd's opinion is obvious enough - but given their paths barely crossed, I'm not sure you could call it an 'outing'...

 

[thehog]

Floyd's opinion is obvious enough - but given their paths barely crossed, I'm not sure you could call it an 'outing'...

A spanking?

 

[martinvickers]

1) Boardman was a gold medalist at Barcelona in 1992 coached by Keen. He joined Legeay and GAN in 1993. In 1992-93 Legeay's team only bright spot was Duclos-Lassalle winning Paris-Roubaix so I'm not sure at all there was a EPO team doping ring at that time. IMO it's unlikely Boardman discovered EPO at GAN'93. According to some, he was already using it in Barcelona'92.

If you don't mind me asking, who?

2) Obree ...how do we know Obree was clean ? Of course he has been vocal but we'll probably never know. If he was clean he was probably a superior athlete assisted by supeior technology

He wasn't just vocal. He lost his job over it, and then proceeded to lose his whole chance of a career when he spoke out about the team. That's arguably even above Bassons level, who only really came out after his own refusal to dope was made public.

 

[martinvickers]

For now!! Let's see if there's a transformation. In the history of oxygen vector dopers, you have a few of them suffering in total anonymity most of the year. And then suddenly...

Wee bit confused here. I thought it was the half-year long consistency (2012) that was a red flag, now it's the no consistency at all and then sudden peak?

If EVERYTHING becomes a sign, surely it becomes meaningless?

 

[martinvickers]

I'd be so much more interested in your POV if you could lose the nationalistic, defensive posture. No one gives a crap if they're British.

They get attacked because they're winning a LOT, some are putting in ridiculous performances, and they claim to be clean. Full stop.

Let it go.

Red.

Plenty of the unbelievers don't have nationalistic bias - they just think pretty much every winner dopes. And that's fine as far as it goes, no need to bring nationality into it.

But there is a subset sometimes seem to find 'anglos' (I wouldn't say just brits) winning, as inherently unacceptable. And it's fair to note that too.

 

[martinvickers]

A spanking?

You could use a lot of words.

It's fairly clear that during the interview, Benson has read the famous Wiggins quote and asked for a reaction - he knows his site's audience is rather more interested in Wiggins than Lim. I fear it's just that cynical. Fair dues, he sure got the reaction!

I find it hard to warm to Floyd, if only because he remains utterly unrepentant on the actual doping from what I've seen. He never really wanted to destroy Armstrong to start with. He wanted to copy him. It was really only fate and Armstrong's sh!tty decision making led him down this road. But I accept you do have to respect his utter "don't give a f***" attitude now he's down it.

I don't want him destitute, by any stretch. In a sense, he's already suffered too much, but I'm not absolutely sure I'd be terribly happy for him to get stinking rich from the law suit either though - much as I'd like to see Lance lose the ill gotten millions. #conflicted, as a twitterer might say.

Mind you, Valverde's even less repentant, repugnantly so, and somehow I warm to the guy*. Odd.

For what it's worth, I find it hard to warm to wiggins too, clean or dirty. Basically because hes a c**k.

Edit: * NB : I still think Valverde should be nowhere near the sport.

 

[red_flanders]

But there is a subset sometimes seem to find 'anglos' (I wouldn't say just brits) winning, as inherently unacceptable. And it's fair to note that too.

I've never noted that here or elsewhere. I will keep an eye out.