THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION REPORT #1

[armchairclimber]

And here's an excellent summary from Ross Tucker (with further links at the foot) http://sportsscientists.com/2015/11/shock-plus-denial-divided-by-the-tip-of-the-iceberg-a-recipe-for-mistrust/

 

[frenchfry]

Re: Re:

https://twitter.com/SSbike/status/663824681733091328

"either you were asleep on the job or part of the corruption"

I go for part of the corruption.

Long form of the interview:

http://youtu.be/oBg6-_wrsOQ

Coe is one slippery dude. I didn't know much about him before, but watching this performance took an instant dislike.

Some similarities to Platini, right hand man to Blatter and took €1m payment many years after "services rendered", now presents himself as the solution to corruption in soccer.

Also reminder of McQuaid taking over for Verbruggen.

 

[armchairclimber]

Re: Re:

https://twitter.com/SSbike/status/663824681733091328

"either you were asleep on the job or part of the corruption"

I go for part of the corruption.

Long form of the interview:

http://youtu.be/oBg6-_wrsOQ

Coe is one slippery dude. I didn't know much about him before, but watching this performance took an instant dislike.

Some similarities to Platini, right hand man to Blatter and took €1m payment many years after "services rendered", now presents himself as the solution to corruption in soccer.

Also reminder of McQuaid taking over for Verbruggen.

The one good thing is that he is smart enough to know that a whole load of people are going under the bus...and that he needs to be seen responding effectively or he'll be one of them. Personally, I'd rather he was one of them, but I doubt that will happen. But the British media are onto just how bad he looks ... he might take a real beating.

 

[poupou]

Re: there there

For Kenya and bribery, we should have to wait for the 2 other coming reports.

 

[Cramps]

Re:

Here's Cram. I know that certain people in here find him objectionable. I don't.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p037mmxq

Here Cram sounds sophisticated and knowledgable about what is going on within athletics. So his hyperbole about good clean brits and Bolt saving the sport etc can't be blamed on innocence.

In any case, thanks it was an interesting link, e.g., even Cram concedes that Coe is not seen as a shining knight by many within athletics

 

[Cramps]

The Lausanne lab and laboratory director come out stinking, although the report admits it cannot at present accuse them of corruption, but finds their stories not credible. Recall though that it was a director from the Lausanne lab that came out in support of Radcliffe's off-scores.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: there there

For Kenya and bribery, we should have to wait for the 2 other coming reports.

there should be a new 'something' not sure what its called..I'm thinking of the 'prisoners dilemma'...

the governing body's chief dilemma...do I try and limit the damge now in the hope that no new revelations come and bite me...or come clean...Coe seems to have failed at his first attempt...let's see how he gets on now...

 

[ray j willings]

Athletics is crumbling . Slowly but surely one after another. If Russia goes down they will take everyone with them. This will be a domino effect of the likes not seen before.

If Russia don't fall then you know its a big a sham as it always was regards to PED's and its cover up.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Athletics is crumbling . Slowly but surely one after another. If Russia goes down they will take everyone with them. This will be a domino effect of the likes not seen before.

If Russia don't fall then you know its a big a sham as it always was regards to PED's and its cover up.

It's not really that big at all. The IAAF was taking money from athletes back in the amateur days for them to compete. Coe was part of that rort. Doping has been systemic in athletics all the way through the the 70s, 80s & 90s from Russians, to British and the US. None of this is very new or surprising.

 

[gooner]

A very good piece on the political ties to this.

Without question, the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, is one of the top five most influential personalities in world sport.

That short list:

Thomas Bach, the IOC president; Putin; the FIFA president, whoever that might be; Sheikh Ahmad al-Fahad al-Sabah, president of the Assn. of National Olympic Committees and a member of the FIFA executive committee; and Sebastian Coe, the recently elected head of the IAAF.

Why Putin?

When Bach was elected IOC president, in September 2013, it’s wise to remember, the very first phone call he took was from Putin.

The chairman of the 2022 IOC Winter Games evaluation commission? Alexander Zhukov, the head of the Russian Olympic committee.

There can be zero question that, as in the Cold War days, Putin is using sport — and its prestige — to advance his reputation and his nation’s standing, both domestically and geopolitically.

Either that, or you think that hosting the Winter Games, the swim and track championships and the World Cup are all just because Russia and Putin are just good sports.

http://www.3wiresports.com/2015/11/09/who-knew-what-when-and-what-is-to-be-done/

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re: there there

.......coe evidently has been to 'politician school' .......nothing is ones fault.....nothing

He was actually an MP for a term, and worked with as William Hague's Chief of staff.
He is very well schooled in politics.

 

[armchairclimber]

Re: Re:

Here's Cram. I know that certain people in here find him objectionable. I don't.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p037mmxq

Here Cram sounds sophisticated and knowledgable about what is going on within athletics. So his hyperbole about good clean brits and Bolt saving the sport etc can't be blamed on innocence.

In any case, thanks it was an interesting link, e.g., even Cram concedes that Coe is not seen as a shining knight by many within athletics

Cram is fundamentally decent. I found all that hyperbolic stuff nauseating this summer, but I genuinely believe that Cram sees Bolt as clean ... for the time being at least. He does concede that they are all, as media pundits, complicit in the whole cesspool and, as such, he's the first person I have seen hold his hands up.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

A very good piece on the political ties to this.
http://www.3wiresports.com/2015/11/09/who-knew-what-when-and-what-is-to-be-done/

Indeed. Of course Putin had his hands in this. Therefore, short of a revolution and total government overthrow, how could anyone possibly expect Russia to simply, and suddenly, alter their course? New destination: Clean sport!

Anyone so deluded as to think that it's even within the realm of possibility for Russia to reverse their ways, in less than a year, and present the world with a new, clean version of itself for the Rio Olympics, is probably in need of some serious doping themselves.

Of course if Russia did do that, they wouldn't stand a chance at those games. And they know it.

Cheating is never going to go away. There will always be doping. That’s human nature.

VW executives agree!
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/08/nordea-will-sue-volkswagen-vw-emission-fixing

 

[thehog]

A very good piece on the political ties to this.
http://www.3wiresports.com/2015/11/09/who-knew-what-when-and-what-is-to-be-done/

Indeed. Of course Putin had his hands in this. Therefore, short of a revolution and total government overthrow, how could anyone possibly expect Russia to simply, and suddenly, alter their course? New destination: Clean sport!

Anyone so deluded as to think that it's even within the realm of possibility for Russia to reverse their ways, in less than a year, and present the world with a new, clean version of itself for the Rio Olympics, is probably in need of some serious doping themselves.

Of course if Russia did do that, they wouldn't stand a chance at those games. And they know it.

Cheating is never going to go away. There will always be doping. That’s human nature.

VW executives agree!
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/08/nordea-will-sue-volkswagen-vw-emission-fixing

Much of the problem comes from that people actually though the sport had cleaned up or was clean. Some thought Ben Johnson was a 'blip' on the map. Doping has been in athletics for decades, nothing about the WADA report is shocking or very new.

I sense that since 2000 through to 2012 the Australians and British liked to believe their own athletes would never dope like other countries.

 

[mrhender]

I'am currently reading the report and thought I would quote this from page 67 describing the working process.

My first reaction is that the commission did an excellent job within the scope and mandate they operated.
I too would have loved this to be a global investigation, but by any means I think this is how to get things done (carry out investigations).

The IC investigators collected, developed and reviewed thousands of documents,
emails, laboratory records, Doping Control Officer (DCO) official reports, witness
statements, recordings, videos, photographs, analysis of laptop computer contents,
analysis of cellular telephone contents, official reports in question, cyber analysis and
related support documents. IC investigators also extensively interviewed fact witnesses
and other individuals who possessed first-hand knowledge or evidence relevant to the
investigation. All investigative protocols were conducted within the sphere of WADA’s
regulatory and monitoring authority and within the authority extended to the IC by
respective cooperating entities.

Also I hink it is clear that the content and implications in the report (even withhelding two important chapters) clearly establishes the magnitue of this, in that it far transcends "simple sport" when you read of instant need for wittness protection and likely geo-political ramifications.

And this is not simple dopers work:

The global nature of the investigation required a significant effort to ensure the
implementation of cyber security counter-measures designed to protect the integrity of
the evidence and in some instances the safety of key witnesses. On multiple occasions,
the email of members of the IC investigative team was targeted by outside rogue
entities for cyber penetration. The IC employed high-level encryption devices for data
storage and secure communications throughout the course of the investigation. All
evidence exhibits are stored within encrypted storage, in a secure facility, for future
reference.

 

[armchairclimber]

A very good piece on the political ties to this.
http://www.3wiresports.com/2015/11/09/who-knew-what-when-and-what-is-to-be-done/

Indeed. Of course Putin had his hands in this. Therefore, short of a revolution and total government overthrow, how could anyone possibly expect Russia to simply, and suddenly, alter their course? New destination: Clean sport!

Anyone so deluded as to think that it's even within the realm of possibility for Russia to reverse their ways, in less than a year, and present the world with a new, clean version of itself for the Rio Olympics, is probably in need of some serious doping themselves.

Of course if Russia did do that, they wouldn't stand a chance at those games. And they know it.

Cheating is never going to go away. There will always be doping. That’s human nature.

VW executives agree!
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/08/nordea-will-sue-volkswagen-vw-emission-fixing

Much of the problem comes from that people actually though the sport had cleaned up or was clean. Some thought Ben Johnson was a 'blip' on the map. Doping has been in athletics for decades, nothing about the WADA report is shocking or very new.

I sense that since 2000 through to 2012 the Australians and British liked to believe their own athletes would never dope like other countries.

I can't speak for Australians (or for sports outside of athletics) but that isn't quite the way I've seen it over the years. For a long time the British system of producing world class performers was amateurish (at best). Quite laughable in many ways. A few athletes have taken it upon themselves to get "more professional" over the years....and this has almost certainly involved PEDs. Most of us know who some of them are and have a fair idea who the others are.

Given that the coaching structure/talent ID was inadequate, poor, underfunded etc ... it wasn't surprising that we did pretty badly, with the exception of a few individuals .... some of whom were just world class outliers, others who "got professional". In the run up to London 2012 there was, finally, a concerted strategy to produce success. Lots of funding (now gone), new facilities and some improvements to talent ID and coaching. Even this wasn't good enough for some (hello Mo) who recognised that there were training operations with more "professionalism" elsewhere.

I don't think I know anyone in my sport that believes "Brits don't dope". There's more the acknowledgement (in T&F at least) that there is no state sponsored programme in place and, in that regard, Brits are not on a level playing field with those nations where the state is involved. To be honest, even now, our T&F coaching structures are woeful. They're trying, bless 'em, but honestly... much of what I encounter is ridiculously amateurish. At local club level we struggle to keep talent within the sport .... there's more money and glamour to be had in football/rugby etc. There's not actually that much to keep talented 16/17/18 year olds coming to the track. Club facilities are often poor/there aren't enough coaches/the coaching often lacks imagination because the same coach has been delivering the same sessions for 30 years. In short, it's not that we're too moral to dope...it's just that our UKA couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery...least of all put together the kind of systems in place that yesterday's report outlined. And we're skint....as a sport, we don't have a pot to piss in.

Ironically, much of the money in UK's running scene is in fun runs/charity runs/park runs/Great North Runs etc etc. I can't really blame Mo Farah for looking elsewhere because, frankly, once we go beyond 400m, we are absolutely clueless at producing elite athletes .... but very very good at producing plodders.

Anyway, rant over.

 

[mrhender]

Another side/perspective on the story here:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/e618fb9783c9498e9c4630a91798e910/column-gulag-russian-cheating-must-be-dismantled

excerpt:

—"Russian athletes were often willing participants. However, there are documented cases where athletes who did not want to participate in 'the program' were informed they would not be considered as part of the federation's national team for competition," said its damning 323-page report.

—"An athlete's choice was frequently limited to accepting the prescribed and mandated doping regimen or not being a member of the national team."

—"Many of the more egregious offenders appear to be coaches who, themselves, were once athletes and who work in connection with medical personnel. This 'win at all costs' mentality was then passed to current athletes, whether willing to participate or not. An athlete's decision not to participate is likely to leave him or her without access to top caliber coaches and thus the opportunity to excel."

—"Coaches wrongfully encouraged their athletes, or athletes chose to believe that all other nations were following similar illicit training methods."

—Coaches ran interference against drug testers. When doping-control officers turned up unannounced at a notorious race-walking training camp in June this year, "it was apparent to the DCO that some of the athletes were not acting of their own free will." One athlete "was crying and appeared to the DCO to be 'scared.'" Nine of the 15 samples collected subsequently tested positive for the banned blood-booster EPO, WADA's report added.

—Coaches and athletes were instructed not to cooperate with WADA investigators and "not to sign any documents."

—An athlete who blew the whistle on doping but later backtracked "was clearly being coached or even threatened by someone."

—Aside from whistleblowers, WADA investigators also "spoke with other Russian athletes to act as potential witnesses but many were simply too frightened for their careers or safety, or did not believe their testimony would change anything."

 

[armchairclimber]

Re:

Another side/perspective on the story here:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/e618fb9783c9498e9c4630a91798e910/column-gulag-russian-cheating-must-be-dismantled

excerpt:

—"Russian athletes were often willing participants. However, there are documented cases where athletes who did not want to participate in 'the program' were informed they would not be considered as part of the federation's national team for competition," said its damning 323-page report.

—"An athlete's choice was frequently limited to accepting the prescribed and mandated doping regimen or not being a member of the national team."

—"Many of the more egregious offenders appear to be coaches who, themselves, were once athletes and who work in connection with medical personnel. This 'win at all costs' mentality was then passed to current athletes, whether willing to participate or not. An athlete's decision not to participate is likely to leave him or her without access to top caliber coaches and thus the opportunity to excel."

—"Coaches wrongfully encouraged their athletes, or athletes chose to believe that all other nations were following similar illicit training methods."

—Coaches ran interference against drug testers. When doping-control officers turned up unannounced at a notorious race-walking training camp in June this year, "it was apparent to the DCO that some of the athletes were not acting of their own free will." One athlete "was crying and appeared to the DCO to be 'scared.'" Nine of the 15 samples collected subsequently tested positive for the banned blood-booster EPO, WADA's report added.

—Coaches and athletes were instructed not to cooperate with WADA investigators and "not to sign any documents."

—An athlete who blew the whistle on doping but later backtracked "was clearly being coached or even threatened by someone."

—Aside from whistleblowers, WADA investigators also "spoke with other Russian athletes to act as potential witnesses but many were simply too frightened for their careers or safety, or did not believe their testimony would change anything."

That is almost verbatim a small part of the summary which begins at about page 367 of the IC report.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

Another side/perspective on the story here:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/e618fb9783c9498e9c4630a91798e910/column-gulag-russian-cheating-must-be-dismantled

excerpt:

—"Russian athletes were often willing participants. However, there are documented cases where athletes who did not want to participate in 'the program' were informed they would not be considered as part of the federation's national team for competition," said its damning 323-page report.

—"An athlete's choice was frequently limited to accepting the prescribed and mandated doping regimen or not being a member of the national team."

—"Many of the more egregious offenders appear to be coaches who, themselves, were once athletes and who work in connection with medical personnel. This 'win at all costs' mentality was then passed to current athletes, whether willing to participate or not. An athlete's decision not to participate is likely to leave him or her without access to top caliber coaches and thus the opportunity to excel."

—"Coaches wrongfully encouraged their athletes, or athletes chose to believe that all other nations were following similar illicit training methods."

—Coaches ran interference against drug testers. When doping-control officers turned up unannounced at a notorious race-walking training camp in June this year, "it was apparent to the DCO that some of the athletes were not acting of their own free will." One athlete "was crying and appeared to the DCO to be 'scared.'" Nine of the 15 samples collected subsequently tested positive for the banned blood-booster EPO, WADA's report added.

—Coaches and athletes were instructed not to cooperate with WADA investigators and "not to sign any documents."

—An athlete who blew the whistle on doping but later backtracked "was clearly being coached or even threatened by someone."

—Aside from whistleblowers, WADA investigators also "spoke with other Russian athletes to act as potential witnesses but many were simply too frightened for their careers or safety, or did not believe their testimony would change anything."

That is almost verbatim a small part of the summary which begins at about page 367 of the IC report.

I know, see the link..

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

So, where does WADA go from here? They have already sanctioned the Moscow lab (as of a few hours ago), submitted their findings to IAAF to sanction athletes and coaches. They have recommended sanction/ultimatum of Russian Federation to IAAF. I do trust IAAF to at least take the individuals' sanctions seriously, and we may see redistribution of medals (a US 800m runner is due to receive 3 new bronze medals...)

WADA has given information on the corruption side of the investigation to Interpol. D Pound said they would report on information of corruption before the end of the year. I don't know if that will be a formal report, like this (i.e. Independent Commission Report #2), as there is nothing in the official report that there is more information. I think WADA did well to follow every lead in the Russian case, and as far as we can tell, no stone left unturned.

Still in the air is all of the investigative information regarding Kenyan doping. It would contrast heavily with the depth and bredth of the Russian case to totally ignore Seppelts evidence (and other evidence accumulated) over issues of Kenyan doping. Specifically, charges of bribery/corruption, test cover-ups, and athlete and coach/training camp doping.

I do believe that WADA isn't biased in some unique way of favoring Kenyan and hating on Russians; I think of the big international sporting organizations, they're the least political by far.

So is there any idea on where WADA goes next?

 

[Billie]

Shubenkov is the only russian athlete that I might acutally consider to believe. Then some competitor (prolly jealues of all the money he spent on masking agents) of his comes with this rumoured story of him giving the testers the finger and heading out

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

So, where does WADA go from here? They have already sanctioned the Moscow lab (as of a few hours ago), submitted their findings to IAAF to sanction athletes and coaches. They have recommended sanction/ultimatum of Russian Federation to IAAF. I do trust IAAF to at least take the individuals' sanctions seriously, and we may see redistribution of medals (a US 800m runner is due to receive 3 new bronze medals...)

WADA has given information on the corruption side of the investigation to Interpol. D Pound said they would report on information of corruption before the end of the year. I don't know if that will be a formal report, like this (i.e. Independent Commission Report #2), as there is nothing in the official report that there is more information. I think WADA did well to follow every lead in the Russian case, and as far as we can tell, no stone left unturned.

Still in the air is all of the investigative information regarding Kenyan doping. It would contrast heavily with the depth and bredth of the Russian case to totally ignore Seppelts evidence (and other evidence accumulated) over issues of Kenyan doping. Specifically, charges of bribery/corruption, test cover-ups, and athlete and coach/training camp doping.

I do believe that WADA isn't biased in some unique way of favoring Kenyan and hating on Russians; I think of the big international sporting organizations, they're the least political by far.

So is there any idea on where WADA goes next?

Bust all individuals and federations that dope. Not just Russian.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re:

Another side/perspective on the story here:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/e618fb9783c9498e9c4630a91798e910/column-gulag-russian-cheating-must-be-dismantled

excerpt:

—"Russian athletes were often willing participants.
...
—Aside from whistleblowers, WADA investigators also "spoke with other Russian athletes to act as potential witnesses but many were simply too frightened for their careers or safety, or did not believe their testimony would change anything."

Daily Mail exclusive from two and half years ago
Russian Athletes ordered to dope by coaches

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re: Re:

Bust all individuals and federations that dope. Not just Russian.

The key to any good investigation is identifying the culprits.

 

[Benotti69]

Russian whistleblower calls for doping spotlight on Kenya and Ethiopia

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/10/russian-whistleblower-andrey-baranov-kenya