• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

The pedaling technique thread

Page 67 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Even IF his technique was different, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is generally 'better' - only that he was able to use it successfully. There might be many other reasons for his success (as Hamish has often mentioned).
I don't know of any information that suggests he wouldn't have been just as successful using a more traditional technique. Perhaps he just 'liked the feel' of pushing large gears, and trained himself to do so.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Re:

JayKosta said:
Even IF his technique was different, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is generally 'better' - only that he was able to use it successfully. There might be many other reasons for his success (as Hamish has often mentioned).
I don't know of any information that suggests he wouldn't have been just as successful using a more traditional technique. Perhaps he just 'liked the feel' of pushing large gears, and trained himself to do so.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

It is only better or invincible in flat not too technical T'T's or anywhere uninterrupted constant high gear power output can be used. Because it needs a longer wind up time, it is not suitable for sprinting, mashing is best for this. There is nothing to prevent any rider from perfecting all three pedalling techniques except lack of knowledge.
 
So you keep saying but without supporting data your comments are just foolish speculation. The smart money is on a high VO2max, high fractional utilisation of VO2max and good efficiency. Proven contributors of performance in elite endurance athletes.
 
Re:

veganrob said:
Interesting, it would be nice if you would have this method actually tested by riders in a controlled experiment for proof. Thank you.
For many years (we are talking more than a decade here) we've been asking Noel to do this. It's not hard, a training intervention either improves performance and power output or it doesn't. But Noel refuses to even do this one simple thing, and there's no excuse given the ubiquity of power meters now days.

Such a simple task would at least demonstrate whether improved power from such "technique" intervention is at least possible (or not), and if it does then we can start to nail down removal of bias in the data, e.g. through use of controls, better experimental method, number of test subjects, more specific equipment for analysis of pedalling etc.

He's even been offered free use of labs that specialise in precisely this sort of pedalling analysis but to this day Noel refuses to put his speculative ideas to the test, even at the most basic of levels.
 
Re: Re:

backdoor said:
...
It is only better or invincible in flat not too technical T'T's or anywhere uninterrupted constant high gear power output can be used. Because it needs a longer wind up time, it is not suitable for sprinting, mashing is best for this. There is nothing to prevent any rider from perfecting all three pedalling techniques except lack of knowledge.
----------------------------
My guess is that most cyclists do (or at least try to) use a specialized technique for riding situations (e.g. TTs) similar to the above.
How much (and 'if') their individual technique helps improve performance is one question.
Another question is if there is a particular 'single technique' that would be best for the majority of cyclists in those situations.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
It is only better or invincible in flat not too technical T'T's or anywhere uninterrupted constant high gear power output can be used. Because it needs a longer wind up time, it is not suitable for sprinting, mashing is best for this. There is nothing to prevent any rider from perfecting all three pedalling techniques except lack of knowledge.
----------------------------
My guess is that most cyclists do (or at least try to) use a specialized technique for riding situations (e.g. TTs) similar to the above.
How much (and 'if') their individual technique helps improve performance is one question.
Another question is if there is a particular 'single technique' that would be best for the majority of cyclists in those situations.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Your guess?

When there are coaches and sport scientists here who work with Olympians, World Tour Riders, World Champions and World Record Holders. As someone who can tick the first three boxes let me assure you that the only thing a rider may do different in a specific situation is vary cadence due to conditions and the use of specialist bikes between road, MTB, track and other events.

Noel is delusional. Not the first, certainly the least important person, to suggest such a pedal style, but none have provided a shred of evidence to support it.
 
Re: Re:

I think what often gets lost or confused by some members of this forum is that we are talking (I think) about endurance power. Endurance power must be fueled aerobically. More power requires more oxygen so endurance power is limited by aerobic capacity. With respect to pedaling technique, there is a prevailing notion in cycling culture that typical pedaling is inefficient. Consequently, improving pedaling technique to make it more efficient might improve endurance power. This notion might seem to be supported by data showing negative torque or power during the leg flexion part of the cycle. However, that negative power is due to the weight of the limb segments and not to muscular action (technique). Typical pedaling produces essentially no negative muscular power. Consequently, here is simply nothing to fix, because typical pedaling is not broken.
In fact, every well done study has reported that changing from preferred/typical pedaling technique makes the cyclist less rather than more efficient.
Could we just put this topic to rest? That will require the will to resist "feeding the trolls" but I'm sure it could be done.

CoachFergie said:
the only thing a rider may do different in a specific situation is vary cadence due to conditions and the use of specialist bikes between road, MTB, track and other events.
 
Re: Re:

PhitBoy said:
I think what often gets lost or confused by some members of this forum is that we are talking (I think) about endurance power. Endurance power must be fueled aerobically. More power requires more oxygen so endurance power is Consequently, here is simply nothing to fix, because typical pedaling is not broken.
In fact, every well done study has reported that changing from preferred/typical pedaling technique makes the cyclist less rather than more efficient.
Could we just put this topic to rest? That will require the will to resist "feeding the trolls" but I'm sure it could be done.

CoachFergie said:
the only thing a rider may do different in a specific situation is vary cadence due to conditions and the use of specialist bikes between road, MTB, track and other events.


All those studies were a waste of time because all those changes were nothing more than a weaker variation of the same basic natural mashing style where maximal torque application is restricted to the 2-4 o'c sector, e.g. circular, powercrank and ankling. That should have been obvious from the fact that when real power was required, riders using these changes reverted back to their mashing style,
 
Re: Re:

CoachFergie said:
...
Your guess?
...
------------------
Yes, precisely because I don't have the type of experience or training that you mentioned.

In my very limited experience doing TTs, I DID find myself concentrating much more on my pedal strokes trying to make them powerful and efficient - but I don't know if what I was actually doing made any difference in technique, power, or endurance. This was many years ago, prior to power meters or even accurate speedometers.

From the anecdotes that I've read in the cycling press, it seems that most riders do try very hard when TT'ing to find that 'sweet spot' of highest speed and sufficient endurance for the event. And that seems to be verified by the use of power meters as a pacing tool and motivator for many riders.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Re: Re:

JamesCun said:
backdoor said:
veganrob said:
backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.

Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.
maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

That's the best I can do. In that close up on the track finishing straight he is applying the same maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. By extending the range of your max torque sector from 30 to almost 120 deg. you can increase power output from your pedalling power stroke while reducing your peak force/torque.

That is incredible that you are able to perform that analysis so accurately based on a simple youtube video. To think that the 'experts' send thousands of dollars on high tech equipment to test the same things and somehow don't find as useful a solution as you have. You should really find a way to validate your technical assessment and revolutionize bike racing for everyone!!


That analysis is not based on his videos. We both discovered this same extended maximal power output technique. I don't know what led him to it but I found it as I attempted to biomechanically combine arm and leg power. I got the idea after passing a physically handicapped rider who was powering his trike with his hands/arms. This technique needs a special bike set up so that the imaginary leg power application and arm resistance lines are parallel. That probably explains why Anquetil's bars were set higher than what was customary for that period. The videos only confirmed we were using identical power generating techniques.
 
What a crock of s**t.

What a vivid imagination you have. You have discovered nothing.

Very easy to estimate the effects of your pedalling technique with ANY power meter to see if more power can be generated, yet you stick to your delusions.

What a sad individual.
 
@ backdoor. Your video shows an unorthodox pedaling style but does nothing to prove your point. There are methods as stated a hundred times by several experts that there are ways to prove his pedling style can provide more power or be more efficient. Why don't you just do it then? You have even been offered help.
 
Re: Re:

CoachFergie said:
JayKosta said:
backdoor said:
...
It is only better or invincible in flat not too technical T'T's or anywhere uninterrupted constant high gear power output can be used. Because it needs a longer wind up time, it is not suitable for sprinting, mashing is best for this. There is nothing to prevent any rider from perfecting all three pedalling techniques except lack of knowledge.
----------------------------
My guess is that most cyclists do (or at least try to) use a specialized technique for riding situations (e.g. TTs) similar to the above.
How much (and 'if') their individual technique helps improve performance is one question.
Another question is if there is a particular 'single technique' that would be best for the majority of cyclists in those situations.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Your guess?

When there are coaches and sport scientists here who work with Olympians, World Tour Riders, World Champions and World Record Holders. As someone who can tick the first three boxes let me assure you that the only thing a rider may do different in a specific situation is vary cadence due to conditions and the use of specialist bikes between road, MTB, track and other events.

More misleading information

http://www.jsc-journal.com/ojs/index.php?journal=JSC&page=article&op=view&path%5B%5D=32
 
Jul 4, 2009
9,666
0
0
Visit site
...from today's Pez....and Dr Stephen Cheung....

Stroke Analysis
The key findings from the study suggests that professional cyclists do indeed have a different pedal stroke than elite and club cyclists. Some of these differences included:

• Professionals had higher proportion of positive force throughout their pedal stroke, ranging between 1.5 to 3.3% more of the pedal stroke compared to elite and club cyclists.

• Professionals also had tendencies towards a lower maximal torque than elite and club cycles at all three power outputs of 200, 250, and 300 W. combined with the above finding of greater positive force proportion, this suggests that the professional cyclists had a smoother and more even pedal stroke, with less need for a single massive peak burst of torque.

• Professionals also had a greater ability to unweight their legs during the upstroke phase, with lower minimum torque at all three power outputs compared to elite and club cyclists.

• In terms of the different joints involved in peddling, the main difference across fitness groups appears to be a progressively greater range of motion in the ankle with higher competitive levels, along with a greater degree of hip flexion.

What I found most interesting was that the professionals seem to have a smoother and longer power phase of their pedal stroke, which required them to have less of a peak burst of torque. This may mean that a single pedal stroke is distributed across more muscles, such that there is less risk of any particular muscle being overly stressed and fatigued.

In terms of the findings of lower minimum torque in professional cyclists, one interesting point to consider is that this may be due to a trend of a slightly lower body mass and therefore likely the lower limb mass in the professionals, rather than to any systematic changes in the pedal stroke itself. The authors found that, in comparing the results before and after preseason in the professionals, no changes in minimum torque was observed when changes in weight through the preseason was factored in.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/toolbox-pro-pedaling-technique/

....gee anyone know what Frank is up to ?.....think he might be interested in this ?....

Cheers
 
Mar 13, 2013
82
0
0
Visit site
blutto said:
...from today's Pez....and Dr Stephen Cheung....

Stroke Analysis
The key findings from the study suggests that professional cyclists do indeed have a different pedal stroke than elite and club cyclists. Some of these differences included:

• Professionals had higher proportion of positive force throughout their pedal stroke, ranging between 1.5 to 3.3% more of the pedal stroke compared to elite and club cyclists.

• Professionals also had tendencies towards a lower maximal torque than elite and club cycles at all three power outputs of 200, 250, and 300 W. combined with the above finding of greater positive force proportion, this suggests that the professional cyclists had a smoother and more even pedal stroke, with less need for a single massive peak burst of torque.

• Professionals also had a greater ability to unweight their legs during the upstroke phase, with lower minimum torque at all three power outputs compared to elite and club cyclists.

• In terms of the different joints involved in peddling, the main difference across fitness groups appears to be a progressively greater range of motion in the ankle with higher competitive levels, along with a greater degree of hip flexion.

What I found most interesting was that the professionals seem to have a smoother and longer power phase of their pedal stroke, which required them to have less of a peak burst of torque. This may mean that a single pedal stroke is distributed across more muscles, such that there is less risk of any particular muscle being overly stressed and fatigued.

In terms of the findings of lower minimum torque in professional cyclists, one interesting point to consider is that this may be due to a trend of a slightly lower body mass and therefore likely the lower limb mass in the professionals, rather than to any systematic changes in the pedal stroke itself. The authors found that, in comparing the results before and after preseason in the professionals, no changes in minimum torque was observed when changes in weight through the preseason was factored in.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/toolbox-pro-pedaling-technique/

....gee anyone know what Frank is up to ?.....think he might be interested in this ?....

Cheers

Hmm,
  • All pros were from the same team
    • same coach?
    • same bike setup?
    • so they pedal the same...
  • 300W for a pro is much easier than 300W for a club cyclist
  • No discussion of causality in that relationship?

And, of course, a video to "pedal like eddy" for completeness :p

(Pez did advertise Frank's products for a while...)
 
If you have a link to a 'free pdf' version of the

García-López J, Díez-Leal S, Ogueta-Alday A, Larrazabal J, Rodríguez-Marroyo JA. Differences in pedalling technique between road cyclists of different competitive levels. J Sports Sci 2016: 34: 1619-1626.

article, please let me know - I'd like to review the full text actual study and make my own evaluation.

From what I saw in the current study abstract and Cheung's comments, it looks like the actual data is quite similar to that in the 1991 Coyle study. The difference being how the data is interpretted.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Re:

JayKosta said:
If you have a link to a 'free pdf' version of the

García-López J, Díez-Leal S, Ogueta-Alday A, Larrazabal J, Rodríguez-Marroyo JA. Differences in pedalling technique between road cyclists of different competitive levels. J Sports Sci 2016: 34: 1619-1626.

article, please let me know - I'd like to review the full text actual study and make my own evaluation.

From what I saw in the current study abstract and Cheung's comments, it looks like the actual data is quite similar to that in the 1991 Coyle study. The difference being how the data is interpretted.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Here you go Jay.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287996608_Differences_in_pedalling_technique_between_road_cyclists_of_different_competitive

You can download if from the above page.

Hugh
 
Re:

JayKosta said:
If you have a link to a 'free pdf' version of the

García-López J, Díez-Leal S, Ogueta-Alday A, Larrazabal J, Rodríguez-Marroyo JA. Differences in pedalling technique between road cyclists of different competitive levels. J Sports Sci 2016: 34: 1619-1626.

article, please let me know - I'd like to review the full text actual study and make my own evaluation.

From what I saw in the current study abstract and Cheung's comments, it looks like the actual data is quite similar to that in the 1991 Coyle study. The difference being how the data is interpretted.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Is that the one where riders were made to ride at a fixed wattage and not at the same relative power? IOW it would have been much easier for some and harder for others.
 
Re:

JayKosta said:
Thanks for the link, but I'm having trouble doing the download .... keeps saying that it has failed after ~200K .
I'll try again using a better connection.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jose_Rodriguez-Marroyo/publication/287996608_Differences_in_pedalling_technique_between_road_cyclists_of_different_competitive/links/575c781b08ae414b8e4c1c5c.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Jay,

It downloads fine via RoadRunner so you ought be be able to grab it with a good connection.

Hugh
 
The 1991 Coyle study compared 'elite-national class' to 'good-state class' riders using a 1 hour maximum effort on ergometer (to simulate a 40k TT).
'Physiological and biomechanical factors associated with elite endurance cycling performance'
E.F. Coyle and others
0195-9131/91/2301-0093$3.00/0
MEDICINE AND SCIENCE IN SPORTS AND EXERCISE
BIODYNAMICS
Vol. 23, No. 1

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
I got the full-text pdf of the Juan García-López, Sergio Díez-Leal, Ana Ogueta-Alday, Josu Larrazabal &
José A. Rodríguez-Marroyo study to download -

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jose_Rodriguez-Marroyo/publication/287996608_Differences_in_pedalling_technique_between_road_cyclists_of_different_competitive/links/575c781b08ae414b8e4c1c5c.pdf?origin=publication_detail

The main 'take-away' ideas advanced by the authors of the study seems to be:

1) There are detectable differences in pedalling technique between riders of different perfomance levels.
2) The differences in technique has some effect on the performance levels.

It's unclear if the differences are a 'learned skill' or a 'natural propensity', and if the technique was explicitely learned whether any 'training techniques or tools' was involved.

In the Conclusion there is one sentence that I believe is incorrect due to typo or editing.
"Professional cyclists had better pedalling technique than
elite and club cyclists, because they needed a lower positive
impulse proportion (between 1.5% and 3.3%) to pedalling
at the same power output."

I think it should read -

'Pros had better pedalling technique than elite and club cyclists, because they needed a lower MAXIMUM TORQUE during the positive impulse proportion ...'

The PIP for the pros was greater and the maximum torque less than that of the elite or club cyclists, as shown in Table 2 of the study.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 

TRENDING THREADS