Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

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I agree.

And it's not just that it's Quickstep and that it's Lefevere, it's also that they are Belgian, which multiplies the pressure.

In hindsight Remco should have gone to a foreign team, even *** Ineos. Somewhere where he's not coddled as the new belgian GT star, but just as the new big talent.
I always thought it a strange decision to choose a team with no GC record to speak of, albeit a very successful team, over a team who had dominated GC for a decade. It seemed to smack of that hubris and arrogance we've seen from him, i.e. I'll be able to win regardless of the team.
 
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Get him to the Vuelta and say: grupetto in the mountains, only full gas in the timetrials and the main objective is ENDING the Vuelta.
NO! I hate reasonings like this. No riders are ever ordered to perform infinite amounts of levels below what they can do. Why should Remco? He'll get up there some day, and he isn't going to do the Vuelta anyway, so it's a bit of a moot discussion.
 
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NO! I hate reasonings like this. No riders are ever ordered to perform infinite amounts of levels below what they can do. Why should Remco? He'll get up there some day, and he isn't going to do the Vuelta anyway, so it's a bit of a moot discussion.
I'll be honest that I was among those who thought doing the Giro wasn't a terrible idea. However, in hindsight I think QS managed his race badly, and also mangled the PR around him in the run up to the race. They should have designated Almeida as sole leader, and massively played down expectations for Remco, saying he'll go all out in the ITT but would play only a support role in the mountain stages. That way he could have gracefully dropped back in the sterrato instead of -- what seemed to me -- digging way too deep.

I think Remco could have finished the Giro in support of Almeida, and maybe on a rolling stage gotten into a break to try for a win, if he'd already shipped 30 minutes early on. He wouldn't have pushed so hard on the downhill where he crashed, either...so I don't think he needs to do the Vuelta, tbh, not in his current condition. Better to grab a win at a lesser race, and think hard about 2022 objectives/strengths.
 
I always thought it a strange decision to choose a team with no GC record to speak of, albeit a very successful team, over a team who had dominated GC for a decade. It seemed to smack of that hubris and arrogance we've seen from him, i.e. I'll be able to win regardless of the team.
Disagree, going to Belgium's premier team was a great move; I still think he might be a VERY strong one-day rider. But having such a young rider is always going to be a bit of a gamble; not all of them are going to be Pogacars right away...would he have done better at, say, Ineos? Who knows? He could have been a Bernal, but he could also have been an Ivan Sosa, i.e. potential that never really panned out...except for his injury, Remco exceeded all expectations.
 
I'm a bit unsure how it would be so different to develop a climber than a sprinter or TTer that a team could do one but not the other. They developed Almeida. They developed Mas. Mas isn't doing better at Movistar than DQS.


That said, isn't most of the teams infrastructure from the old HTC Columbia?
I don't know about HTC, I just remember Quick Step way, way back when Virenque signed for them (& Lefevere was his boss back then). A combination of punchy stage hunters & classics specialists was their strong point.

I simply noticed the super jarring contrast between how well these DQS guys tactically ride the classics (with Alaphilippe, Asgreen etc.) & sprint trains (like setting up Cavendish perfectly) versus how crap they were in the Giro with both Remco Evenepoel & Almeida riding like headless chickens, ditto their teammates.

So in terms of preparing GC riders in grand tours, their behind the scenes preparation & also race day tactics are not yet up there with the best.
 
I don't know about HTC, I just remember Quick Step way, way back when Virenque signed for them (& Lefevere was his boss back then). A combination of punchy stage hunters & classics specialists was their strong point.

I simply noticed the super jarring contrast between how well these DQS guys tactically ride the classics (with Alaphilippe, Asgreen etc.) & sprint trains (like setting up Cavendish perfectly) versus how crap they were in the Giro with both Remco Evenepoel & Almeida riding like headless chickens, ditto their teammates.

So in terms of preparing GC riders in grand tours, their behind the scenes preparation & also race day tactics are not yet up there with the best.
Or before with Uran when he only had Wout’s help in the mountains.
 
I don't know about HTC, I just remember Quick Step way, way back when Virenque signed for them (& Lefevere was his boss back then). A combination of punchy stage hunters & classics specialists was their strong point.

I simply noticed the super jarring contrast between how well these DQS guys tactically ride the classics (with Alaphilippe, Asgreen etc.) & sprint trains (like setting up Cavendish perfectly) versus how crap they were in the Giro with both Remco Evenepoel & Almeida riding like headless chickens, ditto their teammates.

So in terms of preparing GC riders in grand tours, their behind the scenes preparation & also race day tactics are not yet up there with the best.
They weren't that stupid in the Giro lol. They just rode for the guy that didn't drop minutes in the first week.

I think they just never invested big in a GT rider, cause they're the most expensive riders and least suited to the DQS sort of tactics and philosophy
 
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He never got the base.

That is why he dropped off after a week at the giro and did not feel any power after five hours at the olympics road race.

That is why the Vuelta would be a bad idea. It would be simply a redo of the giro, perhaps worse. I think they are right to send him to smaller races mainly to build back some confidence. However, I do not hold much hope for Lombardy or Worlds because of the lengths of these races.

He always needed the base. How a professional team could allow a rider to start his racing at the Giro without having done any base work (thus lacking endurance and stamina) is the reason he has lost a season. And it is the question that needs to be asked of Lefevre. I cannot imagine Ineos or Jumbo doing that to a rider.
 
except for his injury, Remco exceeded all expectations.
Can't agree with that. At all. Like the expectations were basically that he is going to be a multi GT/monuments winner, maybe already this year. Are those expectations fair? Probably not. But they exist (see this thread alone). And I am sure Remco himself is not happy at all how this year turned out. So expectations not reached (yet).
 
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They weren't that stupid in the Giro lol. They just rode for the guy that didn't drop minutes in the first week.

I think they just never invested big in a GT rider, cause they're the most expensive riders and least suited to the DQS sort of tactics and philosophy
The one stage which really stuck out was the gravel stage, i.e. not just the shenanigans when Evenepoel was finally dropped for good (with the decision to send Almeida back to help taking forever & what looked like total indecision from the sporting directors), but also the build-up to the first gravel section where DQS were positioned horribly & basically allowed Ganna to maul them & leave Evenepoel without help (they blew up teammates like Cavagna in the chase after he was first dropped).

The team knows how to nurture talent.

The problem is people thinking he is ready do win GTs right now.

Look at the title of this thread. Another problem.
I don't want to go off-topic here, but I'd throw Almeida into the same "impatient" category as well. I mean one fairly decent Giro in a field where Tao Geoaghan-Hart won & suddenly we saw Almeida & Remco Evenepoel fighting for GC leadership in the Giro 2021. It was a mess & expectations regarding both their riders were not exactly smart (i.e. expectations DQS created themselves, as did their riders).

Compare that to how Jumbo-Visma (for example) kept on downplaying Jonas Vingegaard in the Tour & taking the pressure off him. I don't even think this is rocket-science, i.e. what you see is what you get: some teams nurture young GC contenders carefully & slowly, whilst others go all in immediately & shoot for glory.

Maybe it's the "Pogacar & Bernal syndrome", i.e. the belief young riders can win it all right now. But those two are outliers & were never the norm (irrespective of a certain narrative created by the media who love to push the "new young generation is taking over" stores).

Just my opinion.
 
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I don't want to go off-topic here, but I'd throw Almeida into the same "impatient" category as well. I mean one fairly decent Giro in a field where Tao Geoaghan-Hart won & suddenly we saw Almeida & Remco Evenepoel fighting for GC leadership in the Giro 2021. It was a mess & expectations regarding both their riders were not exactly smart (i.e. expectations DQS created themselves, as did their riders).

Compare that to how Jumbo-Visma (for example) kept on downplaying Jonas Vingegaard in the Tour & taking the pressure off him. I don't even think this is rocket-science, i.e. what you see is what you get: some teams nurture young GC contenders carefully & slowly, whilst others go all in immediately & shoot for glory.

Maybe it's the "Pogacar & Bernal syndrome", i.e. the belief young riders can win it all right now. But those two are outliers & were never the norm (irrespective of a certain narrative created by the media who love to push the "new young generation is taking over" stores).

Just my opinion.
You are creating a narrative that DQS that dont know how to nurture talents and that they have shot for glory early.

When that is the furthest thing from the real picture here.

But do you.
 
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You are creating a narrative that it DQS that dont know how to nurture talents and that they have shot for glory early.

When that is the furthest thing from the real picture here.

But do you.
Well, I actually do believe DQS have no idea how to nurture GT talents (they've never won a GT). I also think Lefevere has lost his mojo & spouts nonsense in the media which undermines his team.

I also don't for one minute believe Evenepoel (or Almeida) can win a GT over the next couple of years & their progression should be incremental & normal, not rushed.

Looking at Evenepoel's race calendar since his injury & the approach to objectives, I say these guys have no idea what they're doing, i.e. symbolized lately by the "awkward" moment in the Olympics TT when Evenepoel looked happy at getting the top time & then visibly disappointed when Uran beat him... when none of that mattered at all because the best guys (as in the adults riding later) blew them both away anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I find Evenepoel exciting as a prospect (& in any case, his ups & downs add some fun to the world tour season), but that Olympics TT (& road race where he was in no way qualified to be viewed as Wout van Aert's equal) should be a wake-up call for Lefevere, DQS & Evenepoel himself: he needs to get stronger if he wants to win the big stuff & that will take time.
 
Can't agree with that. At all. Like the expectations were basically that he is going to be a multi GT/monuments winner, maybe already this year. Are those expectations fair? Probably not. But they exist (see this thread alone). And I am sure Remco himself is not happy at all how this year turned out. So expectations not reached (yet).
i am one who actually thinks remco would have walked away with the giro in 2020 without the crash, and I still think that would have happened. he was in perfect shape, dominating TTs and had the base. there was absolutely no evidence that he would not be a great GC rider.

however, once the accident happened -- and it was no joke -- everything should have been recalibrated, everything. all effort should have been simply on slowly recovering what was lost. with absolutely no other expectations.

the only reason that this year has been disappointing is because it was 1. mismanaged and 2. because nothing was done to lessen expectations. many are taking this year's performance as being Remco's ceiling as opposed to realizing that he is way under 2020 and arguably under 2019 when he rode away from everyone in San Sebastian and finished second in the worlds ITT. His present performances have absolutely no relation to what he was doing at age 20 or even 19.

this is not his natural progression. this is the natural regression from a horribly mismanaged recovery.
 
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Well, I actually do believe DQS have no idea how to nurture GT talents (they've never won a GT). I also think Lefevere has lost his mojo & spouts nonsense in the media which undermines his team.

I also don't for one minute believe Evenepoel (or Almeida) can win a GT over the next couple of years & their progression should be incremental & normal, not rushed.

Looking at Evenepoel's race calendar since his injury & the approach to objectives, I say these guys have no idea what they're doing, i.e. symbolized lately by the "awkward" moment in the Olympics TT when Evenepoel looked happy at getting the top time & then visibly disappointed when Uran beat him... when none of that mattered at all because the best guys (as in the adults riding later) blew them both away anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I find Evenepoel exciting as a prospect (& in any case, his ups & downs add some fun to the world tour season), but that Olympics TT (& road race where he was in no way qualified to be viewed as Wout van Aert's equal) should be a wake-up call for Lefevere, DQS & Evenepoel himself: he needs to get stronger if he wants to win the big stuff & that will take time.
I dont understand the labeling of him as a "GT" talent or why fans and people have pushed him as that this early in his career. He hasnt showed anything at a GT yet. He hasnt even raced for that long, really. He needs more hours on the bike. Both training and racing-wise. He is still catching up on a lot of things that come natural to someone who raced from young age.

DSQ has never historically been a GC-team, so why view them as that and hold them to that standard? Especially compared to teams with a way bigger budget and with a clear focus on GTs. DQS have not done that yet, I believe.

They dont know what they are doing as you say, but they have gotten podiums with both Uran and Mas for example in the past at GTs just in the last decade. Was close with Almeida, just last-year at the Giro. Where they were kinda doing the exact same thing that you say J-V did with Vingegaard, who is a couple of years older and been good all season. They tried to play it down that he would keep the jersey and took it day by day. He wasnt able to hold on that time though, understandably.

They know how to nurture talent. I am not saying anything infront of that word. Just make a list of how many careers they have started. How many wins. How many talents produced. Stars. The list can get pretty long.

I believe the team is able to nurture his talent, keep it at that, to get the best out of him. Whether it comes to one-days races and stage-races. In a few more years hopefully GTs also. Who knows. Maybe he even changes team if that is what he wants to pursue. It should be his choice.

But now is not the time to put all the eggs in that basket. Nor is it what they have done yet. Remco still has things to prove and learn on how to lead and use his team. Become a better rider in all aspects, because there are things he could work on and now he has been forced to focus more on recovering himself after that injury. Still suffering from that with recovery that had complications. I think people are forgetting how many important factors there are here, when they pointing out faults that they think the team has made. Like that is where the problem lies. It is more complicated than that.

I think they had/have a plan but as we all know things happen and things change. People, fans and media just have no patience or understanding how things really work though sometimes.

Give time, time.
 
I also don't for one minute believe Evenepoel (or Almeida) can win a GT over the next couple of years & their progression should be incremental & normal, not rushed.

Don't get me wrong, I find Evenepoel exciting as a prospect (& in any case, his ups & downs add some fun to the world tour season), but that Olympics TT (& road race where he was in no way qualified to be viewed as Wout van Aert's equal) should be a wake-up call for Lefevere, DQS & Evenepoel himself: he needs to get stronger if he wants to win the big stuff & that will take time.
You are acting as if his form this season was a natural progression of his early 2020 form. It was/is not, he had a horrible injury and did not get a decent build up after his recovery. Obviously no progression should be rushed, so that's a strange point to make. It however does not mean him or Almeida couldn't win a GT over the next couple of years.

I dont understand the labeling of him as a "GT" talent or why fans and people have pushed him as that this early in his career. He hasnt showed anything at a GT yet. He hasnt even raced for that long, really. He needs more hours on the bike. Both training and racing-wise. He is still catching up on a lot of things that come natural to someone who raced from young age.

They know how to nurture talent. I am not saying anything infront of that word. Just make a list of how many careers they have started. How many wins. How many talents produced. Stars. The list can get pretty long.

I believe the team is able to nurture his talent, keep it at that, to get the best out of him. Whether it comes to one-days races and stage-races. In a few more years hopefully GTs also. Who knows. Maybe he even changes team if that is what he wants to pursue. It should be his choice.

But now is not the time to put all the eggs in that basket. Nor is it what they have done yet. Remco still has things to prove and learn on how to lead and use his team. Become a better rider in all aspects, because there are things he could work on and now he has been forced to focus more on recovering himself after that injury. Still suffering from that with recovery that had complications. I think people are forgetting how many important factors there are here, when they pointing out faults that they think the team has made. Like that is where the problem lies. It is more complicated than that.

I think they had/have a plan but as we all know things happen and things change. People, fans and media just have no patience or understanding how things really work though sometimes.

Give time, time.
The labeling comes from Remco himself, stating when he was still a junior before he signed for DQT, that he wanted to become a GT rider/winner. Nobody "pushed" him, it was his dream and ambition, he didn't care much for 1 day races. Combine that with the fact that in his first year as a pro, he already became EU champ ITT, and silver medalist at the WCC ITT. Then further combine that with him dropping Landa, Sosa, Yates, Kuss, Gaudu, Carapaz etc etc etc in Burgos on a 8.5k @9% climb, and dominating a streak of 1-week races proving his consistency (which he already proved during his junior years, never having a bad day). I'm a bit confused here as what exactly it would otherwise take before we should be able to say "hey, maybe this kid would be good as a GC rider in GT's!" Should we have waited until he actually won one?

DQT have nurtured talent, but never a talent like him, and i'm not just talking about the "magnitude" of his talent, i'm mainly talking about his trajectory. Most of the talent they nurtured, followed a traditional path. A rider who rode 8-12 years in youth cats, becoming pro at +/-20-22, to become a race favorite 2-5 years later. He had only been on a bike for 2 years, at the moment he was already starting the WCC ITT at the age of 19 as one of the biggest favorites. DQT misjudged his rise to the top and did not take adequate action to either slow him down, and prepare him for his new status as favorite. They did not address his lack of experience and lack of technical / bikehandling skills. He did not get any transition, easing into becoming a favorite at the pros. Furthermore, there were camera teams following him at every race in 2020 for a series of documentary episodes of him on TV. Where was Lefevere to advise him against that, or to outright forbid it? And again during the 2021 Giro.

For me the question about him is how much about the hype about his climbing was due to what happened on the road and how much was due to people around him talking about his climbing numbers in trainings, etc.
Probably about 99% of what happened on the road. Burgos had a stacked field due to Covid erasing most other races, it was a stronger GC field than the 2019 Vuelta or the 2020 Giro. It became one of the most important 1 week races of 2020 because of the heavily adjusted calendar. There was no ITT for him to take advantage of like in Algarve or BBT, and yet he absolutely smashed it. Furthermore, what he showed in the first 10 days in the Giro, even in what we now know was far from his best form, he was very strong and 2nd in GC until the sterrati stage. He was Bernal's equal on stage 6, and even on Zoncolan, after he started to crumble, he only lost 20s on Vlasov, 40 seconds on Carthy and 50s on Caruso. There was a lot of anticipation based on the hype, the numbers, and the conviction but imho Burgos showed that he really was that good.
 
Funny coming from you since you time and time again ignore my request about having no contact or conversation with you.

Can you read that again?
Can't remember having signed anything prohibiting me from responding to other posters on a public forum. If you don't like the terms, a public forum is probably not for you. If you don't like what i have to say, you can simply block me. Or maybe you want to read the terms & conditions or forum rules again?

Or you could try and make an argument, have an actual discussion, and point out what exactly it is you don't agree with.
 
Can't remember having signed anything prohibiting me from responding to other posters on a public forum. If you don't like the terms, a public forum is probably not for you. If you don't like what i have to say, you can simply block me. Or maybe you want to read the terms & conditions or forum rules again?

Or you could try and make an argument, have an actual discussion, and point out what exactly it is you don't agree with.
I stopped arguing with you a long time ago. In fact, I havent even read your latest post. But since you have quoted me a couple times over the past week, you got your response.

I will have to look into how you block someone. The ignore button is simply not enough. I got nothing more to say.
 
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I stopped arguing with you a long time ago. In fact, I havent even read your latest post. But since you have quoted me a couple times over the past week, you got your response.

I will have to look into how you block someone. The ignore button is simply not enough. I got nothing more to say.
I can't remember you ever having argued at all even. You simply started with personal attacks because you did not agree with something i wrote. And if you didn't even read my posts, then why even react? And "ignore" is the same as "block". You will no longer read my posts, even when somebody quotes my post, that will not be visible. It doesn't stop me from replying to your posts. If that doesn't do it for you, you can always try this.
 
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I can't remember you ever having argued at all even. You simply started with personal attacks because you did not agree with something i wrote. And if you didn't even read my posts, then why even react? And "ignore" is the same as "block". You will no longer read my posts, even when somebody quotes my post, that will not be visible. It doesn't stop me from replying to your posts.
Thats not true.

And I am waiting on a response on the block thing, but I figured that was the case anyway.

But let me ask you. Where is your decency ? Why cant you try to uphold a request from me? I uphold mine by simply not interacting with you or anything you say at all. I dont have an opinion on anything you say. I simply go past it. How hard is it to simply ignore me?

You only got a reaction from me because I got tired of seeing you quote, quote and quote me again. When I dont care to discuss, argue or have a conversation with YOU, only YOU, on this public forum. Grant me this. Quoting me out of spite or because you can, would just be a nasty thing to continue doing. Be the bigger man.
 
Thats not true.

And I am waiting on a response on the block thing, but I figured that was the case anyway.

But let me ask you. Where is your decency ? Why cant you try to uphold a request from me? I uphold mine by simply not interacting with you or anything you say at all. I dont have an opinion on anything you say. I simply go past it. How hard is it to simply ignore me?

You only got a reaction from me because I got tired of seeing you quote, quote and quote me again. When I dont care to discuss, argue or have a conversation with YOU, only YOU, on this public forum. Grant me this. Quoting me out of spite or because you can, would just be a nasty thing to continue doing. Be the bigger man.
I can't remember requesting anything of you. You not reading my posts is your choice, which i respect, but me reading yours and replying to their content does not make me an indecent person. It has nothing to do with spite, which can not be said of you.
 
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