Vincenzo Nibali

[Big Doopie]

Looking at how he carefully "managed" this Giro, particularly how he didn't blow off Santambrogio on stage 14 and took the opportunity to build significant time on Evans makes me think the whole thing is well and truly "managed". Managed the effort, managed the results, and most likely managed via a doping program unlikely to be detected. Undeniably talented, as per Contador, but undeniably assisted.

I agree with much of this.

But seriously how do you "know" that he is "undeniably talented" (like Clentadoppucci of all people).

And please, please don't talk to me about "steady progression" (something i and others here have shown to be scientifically meaningless in a world where every single piece of data is corrupt. Every single one.)

We simply cannot know the real talent of any rider until cycling can provide some factual assurance that the riding and hierarchy is largely unaffected by doped riders.

And that has been the conundrum of the true cycling fan these past 23 years.

Most likely you are speaking from your heart. As are those who extol the value of other known doped riders. It's almost as if the best thing to do is dope early and win and then the fans will forever think you are a "great" rider. It really is messed up. There is absolutely no way of knowing the natural hierarchy and talents with this history.

 

[Gregga]

And please, please don't talk to me about "steady progression" (something i and others here have shown to be scientifically meaningless in a world where every single piece of data is corrupt. Every single one.)

So true... even DI Luca had a steady progression from 1998 to 2007

 

[hrotha]

So true... even DI Luca had a steady progression from 1998 to 2007

That's not true. He had a steady progression as a hilly rider, then suddenly exploded as a real climber.

 

[Eshnar]

So true... even DI Luca had a steady progression from 1998 to 2007

in 2005 Di Luca went from being a Gilbert -like rider to get a 4th place in a GT. Steady progression?

 

[Big Doopie]

That's the error in using "steady progression" irrespective of the rider.

Example: fantastic clean natural talent gets good enough amateur results to gain a pro contract. He refuses to get on the program and languishes as pack fodder (or worse) and gets criticized for not living up to expectations despite riding clean against mostly doped competitors.

Another rider - average amateur but getting good results by some doping gets similar pro contract. He immediately hooks up with a hematologist and perhaps a team program. While he takes a few years to adapt to the super doped program and the doped competition he progresses steadily in this doped environment.

Now these are just two possibilities but the combinations are endless and we are no closer to seeing who is clean.

"Steady progression" is meaningless and a non-starter.

 

[whittashau]

So, the rumors are that Ferrari was seen working with Nibbles in 2007. Hadn't Nibbles already podiumed in world championship races as early as 2002? Was he juicing then as a 17 year old? Or is that still corrupt data?

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

So, the rumors are that Ferrari was seen working with Nibbles in 2007. Hadn't Nibbles already podiumed in world championship races as early as 2002? Was he juicing then as a 17 year old? Or is that still corrupt data?

17 is nt that "young", I know a couple of guys that used steroids at that age to build muscels. But then again, They where a bit crazy at that time

 

[Miburo]

in 2005 Di Luca went from being a Gilbert -like rider to get a 4th place in a GT. Steady progression?

 

[Ripper]

That's the error in using "steady progression" irrespective of the rider.

Example: fantastic clean natural talent gets good enough amateur results to gain a pro contract. He refuses to get on the program and languishes as pack fodder (or worse) and gets criticized for not living up to expectations despite riding clean against mostly doped competitors.

Another rider - average amateur but getting good results by some doping gets similar pro contract. He immediately hooks up with a hematologist and perhaps a team program. While he takes a few years to adapt to the super doped program and the doped competition he progresses steadily in this doped environment.

Now these are just two possibilities but the combinations are endless and we are no closer to seeing who is clean.

"Steady progression" is meaningless and a non-starter.

Very true. Folks get things mixed up.

Sudden transformation is very suspicious. But while steady improvement does not raise eyebrows, that does not mean a person is not doping to the eyeballs.

 

[whittashau]

17 is nt that "young", I know a couple of guys that used steroids at that age to build muscels. But then again, They where a bit crazy at that time

Well yeah, but chances are that it's typically pretty hard for 17 year olds to get their hands on drugs... mostly due to the cost. Plus because he got on the podium at the WC then he would have got tested, and I doubt he knew the ways of micro-doping and whatnot back then?

My point being is that it's somewhat absurd to suggest Nibali only got where is because of PEDs, as clearly he was always pretty talented. I guess it's possible he's been juicing since he was 17, but I don't think it's that likely

 

[Afrank]

Surely this is just an academic question. It should be a widely accepted fact that just about every top GC rider since the early 90s has been doped. What I like about Nibali (aside from his admirable descending skills and generally decent personality) and Astana is that they don't try and con the world by bringing up BS about cadence or warm downs or whatever.

A reason for that could be they are not under as much pressure and are not questioned as much as Sky are. A Tour win will lead to more speculation by more people than a Giro or Vuelta win after all.

But regardless, agree with you. It's nice to see Nibali and Astana not give us a bunch of PR "we're clean" BS.

 

[JimmyFingers]

So its ok to dope as long as don't say you're not doping? I must have missed the memo.

 

[hfer07]

That's the error in using "steady progression" irrespective of the rider.
"Steady progression" is meaningless and a non-starter.

So in your Opinion- Greg Lemond's "steady progression" is meaningless?

 

[Afrank]

So its ok to dope as long as don't say you're not doping? I must have missed the memo.

No, but the amount of "we're clean" PR that Sky gives us is annoying. I'd rather teams and riders not give a bunch of PR excuses, like marginal gains, that supposedly prove they are clean.

 

[Netserk]

So its ok to dope as long as don't say you're not doping? I must have missed the memo.

Nope. Dope it still just as bad. It's the hypocrisy on top that makes it worse.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Can you say categorically Lemond rode clean?

You can't prove a negative. That's the inherent flaw when holding up one rider's performance as a clean control, to measure other rider's performance against.

Rogers worked with Ferrari like Nibali, do you give him the same benefit of the doubt?

 

[Netserk]

Rogers worked with Ferrari like Nibali, do you give him the same benefit of the doubt?

Yes I give them the same 'benefit of the doubt'. I think both are dopers.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Nope. Dope it still just as bad. It's the hypocrisy on top that makes it worse.

Over a month after the possibility was first mentioned, the Astana team has made official its application to join the Movement for Credible Cycling (MPCC). It thus joins a queue of squads who are aiming to have their names added to the eleven-member list at its upcoming meeting on February 7th.

The approach to the MPCC’s president Roger Legeay was undersigned by the new general manager Alexandre Vinokourov, who himself served a long suspension during his career but who states that the sport must move on from its past.

“As stakeholders in professional cycling and in full recognition of the importance in demonstrating publicly our determination to prevent doping, Pro Team Astana formally requests to join the Mouvement Pour un Cyclisme Credible,” he wrote in a letter to Legeay.

“Damaging practices in the past have created problems for professional cycling's future, placing the reputation, image and viability of the sport at serious risk. Neither the doping practices nor the environment that served to enable them can ever be allowed to happen again.

“On the basis of trust and transparency, Pro Team Astana finds the MPCC Code of Conduct to be a credible, voluntary step towards protecting and re-establishing the positive, clean image of professional cycling.”

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...membership-for-Astana-team.aspx#ixzz2UE02IDYM

Martinelli said the Kazakh team are discussing joining it with their doctors and will make a final decision at their training camp at the beginning of December.

"I think it is an important thing to do, to try to change something or in any case to send an important signal," he said.

"Maybe we don’t talk about it so much, but we really do a lot (of anti-doping work). We have an internal system that monitors all cyclists day by day. We perform our internal controls.

"We are a team that has changed a lot since two years ago. We are seeing the results of that now.

"Until now, for that specific reason we have not had any more problems. But it’s too early to talk - as I said, we need to work more and talk less."

Martinelli insisted that no-one at the team has had any recent contact with Michele Ferrari, the Italian doctor handed a lifetime sports ban by the US Anti-Doping Agency for numerous violations.

Astana's entire management resigned ahead of the 2008 season over a doping scandal involving Alexander Vinokourov, but their next chief, Johan Bruyneel, has since been accused of involvement in doping himself and was sacked by RadioShack-Nissan this year.

"All this is history. During these last few years I think everybody knows (Ferrari) is out of cycling," he added. "If some stupid person after that goes to Ferrari I think they really should not be racing anymore.

"Since I arrived, from 2010, I have never seen the Ferraris - I have not seen them with our team. I think the idiots - we have a lot of them in our sport - have understood the story now and they are very careful."

Yep, no fake PR guff from Astana

 

[cineteq]

I hope he's not, but if he is, he's the cleanest looking doper in the peloton. Still give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Yes I give them the same 'benefit of the doubt'. I think both are dopers.

I loled at this, fair play to ya

 

[JimmyFingers]

"I've been testing material since the start of the year with Astana, I've spent entire days at the track, from morning to night, testing time trial equipment," said Nibali. "On top of that, the team leaves me very tranquillo and I can work calmly and get to races with a minimum of stress."

Nibali explaining his TT performance

 

[the sceptic]

Yep, no fake PR guff from Astana

Astana and Sky have a lot in common Jimmy. Im glad you embrace them both as clean teams.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Astana and Sky have a lot in common Jimmy. Im glad you embrace them both as clean teams.

I don't know about either definitively, just dislike double standards

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I don't know about either definitively, just dislike double standards

What double standards Jimmy? Does Astana have a ZTP?

 

[JimmyFingers]

A reason for that could be they are not under as much pressure and are not questioned as much as Sky are. A Tour win will lead to more speculation by more people than a Giro or Vuelta win after all.

But regardless, agree with you. It's nice to see Nibali and Astana not give us a bunch of PR "we're clean" BS.

These ones, Doc