Who has the best palmares: Valverde vs. Nibali

[gregrowlerson]

Only in 2014. He wasn't close to winning it any other time.

The example you posted of 2009; he was very competitive then (though yes, not exactly Verbier form). And 2010 he was leading, but had one bad day/climb?

 

[gregrowlerson]

Contador won the route de sud in 2015, or doesn't that say much given its lower status and him coming off the Giro?

 

[tobydawq]

The example you posted of 2009; he was very competitive then (though yes, not exactly Verbier form). And 2010 he was leading, but had one bad day/climb?

Also, the guy who won in 2009 was not going to do the Tour, so it was hardly strange not to beat him.

 

[Barkintheeye]

See now that this was an old thread. 2014 was a little too early to decide who has/had the best palmares of these two gigants. Maybe we'll have to wait another couple of years before this battle can be decided

 

[gregrowlerson]

I just did some pondering.

Let's get slightly back on topic, and let's not.

I'm not sure if Nibali's crash in the 2018 Tour matters THAT much (in terms of just that race at least). Even if (big if) Nibali wins that Tour, I don't think it changes his legacy all that much, nor Froome's.

It's kind of weird that once Froome became a force at the Tour, he raced it seven times, and out of the six times that he finished, he was only beaten once by a rider not on his own team (and that didn't hurt or mean as much because Thomas was in yellow).

And it was never very interesting, and not necessarily because of Froome. We had some years when Froome was definitely very good, but also where Nibali was very good, and Quintana was pretty good, and Contador was at least still pretty good; but for one reason or another, the aftermath of "Let's get ready to rumble!" was always a disappointment.

It's ridiculous that in the end, the best we were left with was Contador and Froome, recovering from injuries, fighting it out for the THIRD biggest GT.

We had riders such as Uran and Bardet coming closest to Froome in July. Somewhat sickening.

Having skipped his home GT in 2014 and 2015, Nibali kind of had to go back to the Giro, I suppose. And nobody wants to be the focus too much on July rider. But Vincenzo was the one guy who could have seriously challenged Froome in 2016, and maybe 2017. I'm adamant that his legs were good in 2015, but that he was just a week or two late in timing his preparation. PSM was a major stuff up (should have been his usual Dauphne display). He couldn't have gone with Froome that day, but he should have been able to keep Porte and Quintana in his sights, and then maybe we have a race. And 2016 and 2017 Froome wasn't as dominant imo.

 

[Cassirer]

. But Vincenzo was the one guy who could have seriously challenged Froome in 2016, and maybe 2017.

Hmmm, don't really see it. Nibali won the Giro against Chaves and Valverde because Kruiswijk crashed out - whatever you might think of this race in terms of luck vs. tactical mastervoodoo, it does not indicate to me that he could have challenged Froome, even if he might not have been in full alien mode anymore.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Another attempt to revive this thread, specifically on topic.

For the very few cricket fans out there, I think that Valverde is a little bit like a batsman or bowler who has a great record at home, but who's overseas numbers are tiny in comparison.

He doesn't shirk a challenge, but more often than not is found wanting (in terms of comparing the absolute greats, Alejandro still usually performs to a good level) when conditions don't perfectly suit him.

When we speak of the 10 biggest races; he having won 3 of them is pretty good (even though it's short of the 5 won by Nibali). The problem is that the Vuelta is only the 3rd biggest of the GT's, and that winning a world championship road race isn't that unique. Also, I'd probably only rate LBL 4th out of the monuments (cobbled classics at the top, partly because those riders are unlikely to contend in GT's, and more riders target them then the other monuments), though winning it 4 times certainly should count for something.

I rate Lombardia 5th, so I don't think this is a key aspect for Nibali in this debate.

I'm not that big on the WCRR, but Valverde's sheer consistency to podium 7 times is incredible. Some podiums do matter, and should count in terms of legacy.

Does Valverde's WCRR record more than make up for Nibali's greater record in the Giro?

Probably.

But it doesn't also make up for Nibali winning the TDF (whilst Valverde was missing the podium).

And Valverde has never had a Nibali MSR moment.

The one week races also have some relevance. For all of Valverde's consistency (and far better than Nibali), he has never once won PN or TA; and these are arguably the 11th biggest races....many riders targeting the TDF use them as a mini (or secondary) peak in their season.

Sorry, winning a dozen Volta somethingorothers doesn't really count.

Valverde probably needed to target and win Flanders at some stage to give him the edge.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Perhaps what I am trying to say, is that when they both entered the club in their primes; Nibali walked out of there at 10pm with a sober sports illustrated model.

Valverde left at 2am with her drunk sister.

 

[SHAD0W93]

The one week races also have some relevance. For all of Valverde's consistency (and far better than Nibali), he has never once won PN or TA; and these are arguably the 11th biggest races....many riders targeting the TDF use them as a mini (or secondary) peak in their season.

He also never really raced them. 2nd to Julich 10” and Contador 11”, and 3rd to Wiggins 1’10” after 2 TTs as his only PN. Then raced TA once in 2002. He’s Spanish so puts more focus on those races while Nibali the Italian.

 

[Angliru]

Nibali had more impressive wins than Valverde because he did those solo in top tier races instead of relying on his sprint to win countless stages and Ardennes classics and as for luck, avoiding crashing is part of cycling but don't forget Nibali was also affected by crashes in the Rio Olympics and 2018 Tour were he could have won or come close to it.

I could also come up with the argument that Valverde also had his share of luck in the Vuelta he won and with LBL finishing on an uphill back then but I don't like alternative history much

Since we’re talking rider luck what about bad luck. At the very start of his run at the Tour after beating Armstrong on a mountain for the stage victory he commenced to crash of that Tour and the next. Maybe that was the year or years that he might have made his first Tour podium. He was climbing early with the elite (Lance, Rasmussen, Basso) so who knows.

 

[gunara]

Since we’re talking rider luck what about bad luck. At the very start of his run at the Tour after beating Armstrong on a mountain for the stage victory he commenced to crash of that Tour and the next. Maybe that was the year or years that he might have made his first Tour podium. He was climbing early with the elite (Lance, Rasmussen, Basso) so who knows.

I thought I was on a wrong page of the forum to see that avatar again, and replying to almost one-month old post Good to see you anyway!

 

[tobydawq]

Since we’re talking rider luck what about bad luck. At the very start of his run at the Tour after beating Armstrong on a mountain for the stage victory he commenced to crash of that Tour and the next. Maybe that was the year or years that he might have made his first Tour podium. He was climbing early with the elite (Lance, Rasmussen, Basso) so who knows.

Plus 2017.

 

[SafeBet]

Call me crazy but I still believe he would have won that Tour.

 

[Red Rick]

Call me crazy but I still believe he would have won that Tour.

You're crazy but now I don't wanna be sane.

 

[Bonimenier]

I'm pretty flabbergasted 33% of the voters don't take the poll seriously and straight out lie.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Another pondering: FW is a pretty big race as it is, but imagine if it was considered a monument (they combined it with LBL like they link Ronde and PR), with perhaps Lombardia removed. Well, this thread probably would have never started.

Unless Alejandro then let an attack go off the front and raced for second because it was now an even more important race.....nah, it's FW, doubt that even Valverde's (self inflicted) voodoo works on that.

But seriously, a lot of riders do kind of target FW. At least I think it's more than just a warm up for LBL in the way that Dauphne is for Tour.

 

[gregrowlerson]

It's time for another big race; another edition of LBL. Potentially an important event in this debate. Would a 5th victory for Valverde be enough to sway anyone currently voting Nibali to switch sides?

 

[SHAD0W93]

It's time for another big race; another edition of LBL. Potentially an important event in this debate. Would a 5th victory for Valverde be enough to sway anyone currently voting Nibali to switch sides?

Doubtful since they’ll bring up the GTs and varied monument success while still bringing up Valverde’s short comings in races.

 

[BigCoward]

It's time for another big race; another edition of LBL. Potentially an important event in this debate. Would a 5th victory for Valverde be enough to sway anyone currently voting Nibali to switch sides?

Not for me, it is the same as Nadal at the French open. Winning the same thing over again but having limited (relatively) success in others can actually harm the argument.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Not for me, it is the same as Nadal at the French open. Winning the same thing over again but having limited (relatively) success in others can actually harm the argument.

If we’re talking monuments, Valverde has more variety in what he finished in the top 10 while not really focusing on two of them because one is in Italy and the other could interfere with the Ardennes. While also finishing in the top 10 and podiums of various Worlds.

 

[BigCoward]

If we’re talking monuments, Valverde has more variety in what he finished in the top 10 while not really focusing on two of them because one is in Italy and the other could interfere with the Ardennes. While also finishing in the top 10 and podiums of various Worlds.

I only care about wins though.

 

[tobydawq]

Not for me, it is the same as Nadal at the French open. Winning the same thing over again but having limited (relatively) success in others can actually harm the argument.

Lol, no, it can't harm the argument if he wins today, are you kidding me?

 

[SafeBet]

I don't normally dream about cycling but last night I dreamt of today's LBL.

Nibali won solo.
Tobias Johannessen second.
Valverde third.

Nibali and Valverde hugged a lot at the finish, almost like they were boyfriend and boyfriend. One of them was wearing the WC jersey, can't remember who.

 

[BigCoward]

Lol, no, it can't harm the argument if he wins today, are you kidding me?

It doesnt change it for me. He is very good at one race, meh.

 

[Red Rick]

I don't normally dream about cycling but last night I dreamt of today's LBL.

Nibali won solo.
Tobias Johannessen second.
Valverde third.

Nibali and Valverde hugged a lot at the finish, almost like they were boyfriend and boyfriend. One of them was wearing the WC jersey, can't remember who.

This is weirder than Nibali paying for my drunk döner sandwich in my dreams man.

At least the wife doesn't have to worry about Safebet dreaming about other women.