Who is Floyd Landis?

[Dr. Maserati]

I don't understand the first part, but I was trying to say that enforcers of the omerta and their accomplices are bordering on evil. I'm thinking of the Simeoni incident and the spitters in the peloton.

Cunego seemed to take it upon himself to ride clean so even under pressure and expectations it's possible.

Ok - this goes back to a point made earlier in the thread - that dopers are not "good' people.

IMO a doper is a doper - now if someone was a douche and starts taking PED's then they are a douche doper. If someone else is a polite person and starts taking PEDs they are a polite doper.

Sure, some riders enforce the omerta - and yes, I think very little of them. but most riders (including clean riders) say nothing at all.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I have a question. If you are found guilty of doping and stripped of your titles, do you have to give the trophy and prize money back? Should Floyd, since he is being so honest, offer to pay back the money he won while cheating? Now that would impress me! Never heard him say anything about those people he cheated. Maybe he has taken the approach of "sticking it to the man" when it comes to races, racers and race promoters. I’d bet there are a few promoters who would love their purses back, not mention a few “clean” riders who would like their rightful share of prize money. Heck, I’d like the $24.99 back I paid for a book that I thought was non-fiction that turned out to be pure fiction. “Positively False” takes on a whole new connotation these days. $24.99 is a lot to pay for a bird cage liner.

The only offence he has been sanctioned for was the positive at the 06 TdF, which he was paid for as the prizemoney is held back for a few months after and in his case frozen pending the outcome of his case.

Well if you want your $24.99 back then you should be hoping he is successful in his claim. Watch this.

I am acutely aware that accepting money on a false premise and then later returning it does not erase the lie, and I'll live with the fact that I lied to trusting people, but I want to live an honorable life and I hope that people will see this as a starting point toward that goal."

 

[buckwheat]

Ok - this goes back to a point made earlier in the thread - that dopers are not "good' people.

IMO a doper is a doper - now if someone was a douche and starts taking PED's then they are a douche doper. If someone else is a polite person and starts taking PEDs they are a polite doper.

Sure, some riders enforce the omerta - and yes, I think very little of them. but most riders (including clean riders) say nothing at all.

Well, yeah, classifying goodies and baddies is a little simplistic.


But when people defend indefensible bs to justify their bad behavior, that's pretty effin bad.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well, yeah, classifying goodies and baddies is a little simplistic.


But when people defend indefensible bs to justify their bad behavior, that's pretty effin bad.

Agreed. ..........

 

[miloman]

The only offence he has been sanctioned for was the positive at the 06 TdF, which he was paid for as the prizemoney is held back for a few months after and in his case frozen pending the outcome of his case.

Well if you want your $24.99 back then you should be hoping he is successful in his claim. Watch this.

Watched it again. So when is he going to get a job like he said so he can start paying people back? Hard to look for a job in NZ unless he thinks he's going to get a Protour team contract riding for the Orca Velo Merino team in the Tour of Southland. Don't think so. Finishing 4th overall against that level competition probably isn't what teams are looking for -- probably not even Orca Velo Merino. I'm sure he had a few beers (didn't pay for them I bet) and shared some stories. I'm sure he was very popular, or maybe he wasn't, hard to say. I still don't buy the sincerity, but I am still keeping an open mind. Aren’t there any races closer to home that he can finish off the podium in and still look for a job? It’s probably more fun to be in NZ on someone else’s dime. It’s a paid vacation. I want one of those! I’m sure when he gets back he will start his job hunt in earnest.

 

[ergmonkey]

I'm not sure I buy into the notion that "good" people dope. Most "good" people are morally opposed to cheating like that. That’s like saying "good" people regularly commit crimes; it is after all a crime. If you routinely do wrong, I think you would be hard pressed to convince most people you’re "good."

How many people do you know who are routinely guilty of speeding in traffic? Nothing out of the ordinary, just that normal 5-10mph over the limit. Are any of those people "good" people? It is, after all, a crime.

 

[miloman]

How many people do you know who are routinely guilty of speeding in traffic? Nothing out of the ordinary, just that normal 5-10mph over the limit. Are any of those people "good" people? It is, after all, a crime.

Hardly comparable. Add to your scenario the person is driving while under the influence with disregard for anyone's safety but his own. What's more, he does it everyday and through his actions causes others both emotional and physical harm. He also robs them of their ability to earn a living and provide for their families or realize their full potential. And what's more, he doesn't feel guilty about it. Yes, I think most people would say he's not a "good" guy. Your scenario is week and banal. It’s a victimless crime. J. S. Mill's Harm Principle states that the right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins. To put it another way a person’s freedom to dope ends the moment he clips into his pedals and competes against someone else. Drunk driving is not a victimless crime and neither is using PEDs in competition. By the way, just so you know, I'm not the one who decides who is good or bad.

 

[MadonePro]

If any rider really cared about the cleanliness of the sport, and catching dopers, they'd (with the help of the authorities) remove evidence of doping and secure it, and pass it on.

All someone would have to do, is take the syringe or packet, and place it in a plastic bag, and provide if for dna/finger print testing, what's so hard about that. If it's that prevalant, it wouldn't be that hard.

Landis has lost the plot, he clearly is confused as to what his story is. How can he ever be trusted.

 

[Elagabalus]

Hardly comparable. Add to your scenario the person is driving while under the influence with disregard for anyone's safety but his own. What's more, he does it everyday and through his actions causes others both emotional and physical harm. He also robs them of their ability to earn a living and provide for their families or realize their full potential. And what's more, he doesn't feel guilty about it. Yes, I think most people would say he's not a "good" guy. Your scenario is week and banal. It’s a victimless crime. J. S. Mill's Harm Principle states that the right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins. To put it another way a person’s freedom to dope ends the moment he clips into his pedals and competes against someone else. Drunk driving is not a victimless crime and neither is using PEDs in competition. By the way, just so you know, I'm not the one who decides who is good or bad.

Enough of this popcockery! Landis cheated at a sporting endeavor which is not even close to someone driving under the influence since only one of them is an actual crime. Nobody goes to jail for cheating (unless it's on your taxes). So just take a deep breath and relax a little.

Oh and btw, Landis may have gone to NZ so he could schmooze some more contacts for that dream gig you want him to have*. You want a free trip? Well, apparently so does Landis since he decided to go. And, yes, that is how the World works.

*Why do I have this feeling that anything Landis does will not be enough for you?

 

[rhubroma]

1. I think there was a lot more of #2 before he even got to #1.
2. Don't really like this about Floyd. But I suppose it is the name of the game.
3. See 2.
4. Fell off and thumbed his nose at everyone in sight.
5. Really bad. Glad I didn't give him any money. Never thought of it really.
6. A drain of cycling's doping funds in hindsight.
7. Who cares.
8. Found out he couldn't extort when the predictable #7 met reality.
9. Followed through on this when #'s 1-8 didn't work out. Needs to take out the king for any hope of a payday that #3 promised to be with doping.

So what's to like?

That the guy's got balls! Which is more than we can say for just about everybody else who found themselves in position # 3.

I mean after all the sh!t the King has dispensed to everybody who dared to challange his hegemony and ways, it's nice to know that that isn't working this time.

PS: Lends creedence to the ol'adige: "What goes around (eventually) comes around."

 

[Benotti69]

Floyd is going through a dark time of his life i imagine. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. The sounds he is making right now are not what i consider one who is still lying would be saying. I would expect a more polished approach rather than what i have seen.

nothing a couple of boilermakers can't remedy.

when quoting my post flickie, respect it with the correct quotation brackets.

What Floyd needs is Pubic Stratalies to reinvent him and get all the fanboys to big him up on forums and blogs. You up for it if the Uniballer calls flickie?

 

[Finbouy]

Floyd found out early on that doping was the only way to compete in what was back then a level playing field. It's since changed, the world has changed. He chose a route to follow that ended suddenly, he wasn't the only one to suffer, yet there seems to be a witch hunt out to get him. He's undoubtedly been a ****, said some stupid things, spent money he didn't "own" but when kicked into a corner the guy had one course of action, fight. He'll keep fighting, he's that kinda guy, you'll never stop him, it's what made him ride a bike hard in the first place.
The only thing I see thats tainted him really badly so far is the Bahati Foundation episode, he should've stayed clear of that, they've suffered for his ignorance.

 

[Benotti69]

Floyd found out early on that doping was the only way to compete in what was back then a level playing field. It's since changed, the world has changed. He chose a route to follow that ended suddenly, he wasn't the only one to suffer, yet there seems to be a witch hunt out to get him. He's undoubtedly been a ****, said some stupid things, spent money he didn't "own" but when kicked into a corner the guy had one course of action, fight. He'll keep fighting, he's that kinda guy, you'll never stop him, it's what made him ride a bike hard in the first place.
The only thing I see thats tainted him really badly so far is the Bahati Foundation episode, he should've stayed clear of that, they've suffered for his ignorance.

how do you figure a 'level playing field' when epo benefits were greater for those riders with a lower hematocrit level than those riders with a higher one?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Watched it again. So when is he going to get a job like he said so he can start paying people back? Hard to look for a job in NZ unless he thinks he's going to get a Protour team contract riding for the Orca Velo Merino team in the Tour of Southland. Don't think so. Finishing 4th overall against that level competition probably isn't what teams are looking for -- probably not even Orca Velo Merino. I'm sure he had a few beers (didn't pay for them I bet) and shared some stories. I'm sure he was very popular, or maybe he wasn't, hard to say. I still don't buy the sincerity, but I am still keeping an open mind. Aren’t there any races closer to home that he can finish off the podium in and still look for a job? It’s probably more fun to be in NZ on someone else’s dime. It’s a paid vacation. I want one of those! I’m sure when he gets back he will start his job hunt in earnest.

Well he cannot get a job in a ProTour team as McQuaid has put him on the blacklist. He was already racing in America, barely making a living.

His only skill or training is as a cyclist - which is why he would grab the opportunity to race in NZ. Its only a paid vacation if you have a job to come back to - otherwise its a bike race with your expenses covered and he hopes to make a few bucks prize-money.
Listening to the interview I posted earlier, I would say Floyd does not even know what his next move or career will be.

 

[miloman]

Nobody goes to jail for cheating (unless it's on your taxes).

*Why do I have this feeling that anything Landis does will not be enough for you?

Really, tell that to Bernie Madoff, or people like Martha Stewart who went to jail for inside trading. Cheating for personal gain, in most arenas, is severly punished. It's called an unfair advantage. And as far as feeling that nothing Landis does will be good enough, well he has talked the talk, but as yet has done nothing to indicate he is willing to walk the walk. He reminds me of someone who is on food stamps who uses his monthly check to play the slots in Vegas and buy lotto tickets. I'm sure most of them have good intentions too, but rarely make good on promises. The road to hell was paved with good intentions. So far I have seen nothing from him to suggest that he's doing anything except biding his time, and hoping for his big payday. Again, I still have an open mind and hope to be swayed. BTW, does anyone know if Floyd is collecting any Gov't Assistance -- food stamps, welfare etc.? Would it change your opinion of him if he was?

 

[ergmonkey]

Hardly comparable. Add to your scenario the person is driving while under the influence with disregard for anyone's safety but his own. What's more, he does it everyday and through his actions causes others both emotional and physical harm. He also robs them of their ability to earn a living and provide for their families or realize their full potential. And what's more, he doesn't feel guilty about it. Yes, I think most people would say he's not a "good" guy. Your scenario is week and banal. It’s a victimless crime. J. S. Mill's Harm Principle states that the right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins. To put it another way a person’s freedom to dope ends the moment he clips into his pedals and competes against someone else. Drunk driving is not a victimless crime and neither is using PEDs in competition. By the way, just so you know, I'm not the one who decides who is good or bad.

Actually, they are a lot more comparable than you seem to think. By your own criteria, consider that:

-most people who speed do it everyday
-by speeding they are demonstrating a disregard for the safety of others
-the negative consequences of their actions frequently include deaths, serious injuries, and costly property and insurance losses
-the above consequences cause enormous physical and emotional harm to victims and their families
-the consequences cause enormous social and financial losses (including tens of thousands of highway deaths per year--I'm not quite sure how doping in a largely doped sport can be as bad as this)

 

[NashbarShorts]

how do you figure a 'level playing field' when epo benefits were greater for those riders with a lower hematocrit level than those riders with a higher one?

Congratulations, you have officially split a hair.
I think the obvious point is that Floyd did what he had to do to compete at the highest level.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Nobody goes to jail for cheating (unless it's on your taxes).

*Why do I have this feeling that anything Landis does will not be enough for you?

Really, tell that to Bernie Madoff, or people like Martha Stewart who went to jail for inside trading. Cheating for personal gain, in most arenas, is severly punished. It's called an unfair advantage. And as far as feeling that nothing Landis does will be good enough, well he has talked the talk, but as yet has done nothing to indicate he is willing to walk the walk. He reminds me of someone who is on food stamps who uses his monthly check to play the slots in Vegas and buy lotto tickets. I'm sure most of them have good intentions too, but rarely make good on promises. The road to hell was paved with good intentions. So far I have seen nothing from him to suggest that he's doing anything except biding his time, and hoping for his big payday. Again, I still have an open mind and hope to be swayed. BTW, does anyone know if Floyd is collecting any Gov't Assistance -- food stamps, welfare etc.? Would it change your opinion of him if he was?

So - in the blue you say you have an open mind.
Yet in the highlighted show your bias.

How has he just talked the talk, and not walked the walk?

He has accepted responsibility for his actions, and has apologized to those he has let down or hurt. He has said if he if he can afford it he will repay all those who gave to his fund.

You say he is only in it for the money even though he has not profited thusfar. You question his participation in a race - even though he is Pro racer (thsts what they do) who has been blacklisted from top teams and lost his job with a team when the news broke.

Can you point out another confessed doper who has done more?

 

[miloman]

So - in the blue you say you have an open mind.
Yet in the highlighted show your bias.

How has he just talked the talk, and not walked the walk?

He has accepted responsibility for his actions, and has apologized to those he has let down or hurt. He has said if he if he can afford it he will repay all those who gave to his fund.You say he is only in it for the money even though he has not profited thusfar. You question his participation in a race - even though he is Pro racer (thsts what they do) who has been blacklisted from top teams and lost his job with a team when the news broke.

Can you point out another confessed doper who has done more?

I can say I want to solve world hunger, but if I do nothing about it, it's just a lot of lip service. And yes, he hasn't profited thus far, but he has positioned himself to do so. And if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If results aren't coming, he isn't getting paid -- professional cyclist or not. So in my mind, the likelihood of anyone getting paid from his income as a professional cyclist is long shot at best. And if all is as it seems, I think David Millar needs to be considered. By admitting his guilt from the beginning, serving his suspension without complaint, never trying to sneak into unsanctioned events, and then finally, coming back and riding clean and being competitive, and all the while being an outspoken proponent of clean cycling -- David Millar gets higher praise from me.

 

[Benotti69]

Congratulations, you have officially split a hair.
I think the obvious point is that Floyd did what he had to do to compete at the highest level.

hardly a hair when you have a hemotcrit level of 40 and get it to the 50% max, which is an increase of 25% compared to a rider with a natural level of 47 (Cunego) who gets, if he takes epo to the 50% max, a % increase of 7%.

Big number differentiations.

Floyd did what at the time what i imagine 99% of team leaders on a team did to try and win the TdF.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I can say I want to solve world hunger, but if I do nothing about it, it's just a lot of lip service. And yes, he hasn't profited thus far, but he has positioned himself to do so. And if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If results aren't coming, he isn't getting paid -- professional cyclist or not. So in my mind, the likelihood of anyone getting paid from his income as a professional cyclist is long shot at best. And if all is as it seems, I think David Millar needs to be considered. By admitting his guilt from the beginning, serving his suspension without complaint, never trying to sneak into unsanctioned events, and then finally, coming back and riding clean and being competitive, and all the while being an outspoken proponent of clean cycling -- David Millar gets higher praise from me.

David Millar? He admitted his guilt because he was in a police cell for 2 days and they found EPO in his appartment. Easy to come back to a Protour team when you're not blacklisted.

But I still thought your criteria was higher than that?
Has David Millar paid back all the clean riders he cheated? Or the fans?

 

[Finbouy]

Floyd did what at the time what i imagine 99% of team leaders on a team did to try and win the TdF.

T'is what I was hinting at. I'm no techie, I don't follow any hemotcrit levels of anyone, to be honest I'm not that bothered neither. I simply wanted to make the point that, at that time, most of the "crowd" were doing something odd, Floyd simply followed the "crowd".
One other point, dispite his arrogance, I kinda admire his spirit/guts/barefaced brazenness, you gotta admire the stamina for bad publicity he's faced, it'd crush most of us.

 

[miloman]

David Millar? He admitted his guilt because he was in a police cell for 2 days and they found EPO in his appartment. Easy to come back to a Protour team when you're not blacklisted.

But I still thought your criteria was higher than that?
Has David Millar paid back all the clean riders he cheated? Or the fans?

Nope, neither has Floyd, and David never said he would. However, David didn't bilk naive fans around the word of their hard earned cash to contribute to his defense fund. I have a real problem with that. I mean, how devoid of character can one be? He found a way to rationalize taking their cash then, so what makes me think he will behave any better now? I will wait and see before I embrace him. Time will tell which side of the fence he will fall on. I have a question for you, do you think Floyd was involved in hacking into the computer? If so, why not come clean on that account. Is it because he could go to jail? What about what happened with LeMond during his hearing, do you believe those actions were taken without his knowledge? I still have questions about his character, do you?

 

[NashbarShorts]

BTW, does anyone know if Floyd is collecting any Gov't Assistance -- food stamps, welfare etc.? Would it change your opinion of him if he was?

Wow, you are really obsessed w/ this guy. On the one hand, you suggest that Floyd is going to be needing a squadra of large wheelbarrels to cart around all the cash he'll earn from the whistleblower suit. On the other hand, you suggest he might be on welfare and even a dead-beat (step)dad for the non-existent child support payments that he must be arrears on.

BTW, don't put your man Millar too high up on the pedestal. To this day, his explanation is that he used EPO once, and felt so guilty about it that he kept the empty (discovered) vial in his apartment as a reminder to himself to stay clean. You're buying that??

Finally:

Who is Floyd Landis?
He's the guy who just finished 4th on GC at the Southland Tour while riding his beatup Cannondale that he schlepped over from the US. That's who. Good for him.

 

[miloman]

Wow, you are really obsessed w/ this guy. On the one hand, you suggest that Floyd is going to be needing a squadra of large wheelbarrels to cart around all the cash he'll earn from the whistleblower suit. On the other hand, you suggest he might be on welfare and even a dead-beat (step)dad for the non-existent child support payments that he must be arrears on.

BTW, don't put your man Millar too high up on the pedestal. To this day, his explanation is that he used EPO once, and felt so guilty about it that he kept the empty (discovered) vial in his apartment as a reminder to himself to stay clean. You're buying that??

Finally:

Who is Floyd Landis?
He's the guy who just finished 4th on GC at the Southland Tour while riding his beatup Cannondale that he schlepped over from the US. That's who.

How many protour riders did he beat? How many teams did you recognize by name? Point is, what was the level of competition? Hardly the same thing as winning a UCI sanctioned event. What do you think the payout was for 4th place? The guy who won, is he a former TDF winner? And I don't know how much he stands to collect from his suit if any, but if he does, given his previous behavior, do you think he is entitled to it?