Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[Ripper]

Look I no way dispute Wiggins transformed as a rider ... If he is doping, he's at it all the time, and has been for years.

Hey - I agree with this!

 

[winkybiker]

.....The field is weak as well......

I read this as "weak as hell". Which I agree with.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

It obviously didn't help him much though, since he got busted in 2008?

Didn't he get busted for CERA in the brief window when there was a test for it about which the riders were unaware?

 

[RownhamHill]

Didn't he get busted for CERA in the brief window when there was a test for it about which the riders were unaware?

No idea to be honest, I was being a bit flippant! It just always makes me smile that a rider who got busted six months into the advent of the new system, and then retired is held up as evidence of the system helping dopers to dope.

 

[Franklin]

what do you reckon his weight was during PR and now at the California race?

I haven't got a clue about his weight, just like everyone else here.

I have already shown that the "eye" test doesn't work and we know that Wiggo doesn't tell the truth about these things.

We can all jump up and down and start fantastic deviations how he did or didn't loose a ton of weight since P-R, but we could never clinch it with data unless he steps on a public scale.

It's all a marvelous distraction.

 

[Franklin]

You're an absolute idiot if you think I think Wiggo - or anyone for that matter - is scum. A complete and utter moron.

If you think your tone is anywhere near balanced I'd say you need to get a new moral scale. *Shrug*.

Now back to the fallacy.

We know Wiggo is not exactly truthful about his preparation. This is quite simply a fact. At best it's misscomunication/stupidity, but however it may be, we know he's not exactly solid with these things.

Unless verified everything Wiggo says on this subject is rather suspect.

But one thing must be said: Though its hardly transparent, being secretive about your form has more than just doping connotations. It's also denying your competitors important info. The latter is in my opinion a fair strategy. This is cycling with it's strategic and tactical moves. Being secretive about your form plays a part.

I'm all for transparency: Publishing wattages and weights, but if it's not universal for the pro-peloton you can't be upset if riders refuse to open up that data. Everyone or nobody.

 

[veganrob]

If you are not fooled by Wiggins "miscommunications/stupidity" and his being secretive about his form, you can't really think that other teams and riders would be fooled.
The other riders have to expect that the competition is coming into these races well prepared and in top condition. Never underestimate the opposition. To do otherwise would be foolhardy.

 

[Benotti69]

It obviously didn't help him much though, since he got busted in 2008?

Was Kohl busted by BP or for CERA.

On 13 October 2008, L'Equipe announced that Kohl had tested positive for CERA.

Did Kohl know in July that they had a test for CERA? I dont think so. What is Wiggins doing now that is undetectable?

check out Wiggins arm. Not natural or normal.

https://twitter.com/Digger_forum/status/466893929166950400/photo/1

 

[RownhamHill]

Was Kohl busted by BP or for CERA.

On 13 October 2008, L'Equipe announced that Kohl had tested positive for CERA.

Did Kohl know in July that they had a test for CERA? I dont think so. What is Wiggins doing now that is undetectable?

check out Wiggins arm. Not natural or normal.

https://twitter.com/Digger_forum/status/466893929166950400/photo/1

Re Kohl see my reply above.

Re Wiggins arm, is that really not normal? The first response on twitter has it about right. Now that photo of Froome's leg the other day by contrast. . .

 

[Catwhoorg]

Two problems:

1. The assumption the bio-passport does something.
The same bio-passport that shows Horner's profiles are totally consistent with doping yet there was no case? How about the one where Armstrong's 2009 grand tour profile had a 1 in 1 million chance of being cleans? No case. How about the one that caught The Chicken? Oh, that's right, it didn't. Cleanest peloton ever.

2. Asking for some kind of logical explanation with the explicit goal of knocking it down isn't really appropriate.

Only Sir Brad knows the answers.

Well it certain DID do something, the graph Ross posted a few years ago showed that.

I did ask him recently if he had an updated version showing 2011 and 2012, my fear is that people's 'fear' has gone as more and more flaws* are seen with it.

*See Lance 2009 for apparent UCI deliberate mismanagement, and Horner for the huge flaw of countering the normal drop in blood in a GT, but staying within limits.

 

[Benotti69]

Re Kohl see my reply above.

No idea to be honest, I was being a bit flippant! It just always makes me smile that a rider who got busted six months into the advent of the new system, and then retired is held up as evidence of the system helping dopers to dope.

Well done on the flippancy, par for the course. So a professional doper caught in a window for doping, wouldn't know whether BP would assist him in his doping? I think you are being silly and flippant yet again,

I suppose you also treat JV and Millar's claims that Sky are clean with the same flippancy.

Re Wiggins arm, is that really not normal? The first response on twitter has it about right. Now that photo of Froome's leg the other day by contrast. . .

the 1st response was from a Eurosport blogger who ignored Armstrong's doping for years, so lets take his response as about as wrong as you can get.

 

[SundayRider]

Why?

How did he do it clean?

Who has ever done anything like it clean?

Jimmy - if he was capable of those performances clean then why wait until he was in the Autumn of his career? Why not do it in the years directly after Armstrong retired? Why wait until the next generation of GT riders are coming up?

I think it was always the plan to go for the Tour in 2012 with the London Olympics and all the extra exposure and income that goes with that.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Did Kohl know in July that they had a test for CERA? I dont think so.

If I remember correctly, there was a brief time period in 2008 when CERA was assumed by abusers to still be undetectable but the authorities had a legitimate test for it, about which they kept quiet. I think Schumacher and Ricco went down for CERA at the same time as Kohl - the riders weren't applying their usual evasion tactics as they thought they didn't need to.

It was a rare period of time when the testers were ahead of the game.

 

[Ferminal]

Well it certain DID do something, the graph Ross posted a few years ago showed that.

I did ask him recently if he had an updated version showing 2011 and 2012, my fear is that people's 'fear' has gone as more and more flaws* are seen with it.

*See Lance 2009 for apparent UCI deliberate mismanagement, and Horner for the huge flaw of countering the normal drop in blood in a GT, but staying within limits.

Yes congrats for making sure riders were no longer too lazy to microdose with their BBs.

 

[SundayRider]

If I remember correctly, there was a brief time period in 2008 when CERA was assumed by abusers to still be undetectable but the authorities had a legitimate test for it, about which they kept quiet. I think Schumacher and Ricco went down for CERA at the same time as Kohl - the riders weren't applying their usual evasion tactics as they thought they didn't need to.

It was a rare period of time when the testers were ahead of the game.

Same this doesn't happen more often.

 

[Ferminal]

Yep, dozens of riders on max CERA, lucky it didn't show up in retics!

 

[RownhamHill]

Well done on the flippancy, par for the course. So a professional doper caught in a window for doping, wouldn't know whether BP would assist him in his doping? I think you are being silly and flippant yet again,

I suppose you also treat JV and Millar's claims that Sky are clean with the same flippancy.



the 1st response was from a Eurosport blogger who ignored Armstrong's doping for years, so lets take his response as about as wrong as you can get.

Flippancy par for the course? I suppose that's better than some other poster's 'par' scores.

So, I don't know too much about Kohl, but you seem to hold his claim that the Blood Passport made it easier to dope in pretty high regard, and I'll defer to your sense of superiority in this case. It does beg a question though as to why, if the passport made it so much easier to dope using established products/methodologies in 2008, he was using CERA in the first place? And since a CERA test did come in, and he did get caught, in 2008, you can forgive me for not treating him, at first glance, as the world's foremost authority on methods that made it easier to not getting caught doping in 2008.

As for Wiggins arms. Good grief. There is nothing remotely out of the ordinary about people having the veins in their forearms showing, especially when it's hot. And I'm talking about just normal build, untrained, every day people here, not elite athletes who weigh their food.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Jimmy - if he was capable of those performances clean then why wait until he was in the Autumn of his career? Why not do it in the years directly after Armstrong retired? Why wait until the next generation of GT riders are coming up?

I think it was always the plan to go for the Tour in 2012 with the London Olympics and all the extra exposure and income that goes with that.

The idea that Wiggins spent years deliberately being crap to save himself for the 2012 Tour is one of the silliest suggestions put forward in this thread so far.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If you think your tone is anywhere near balanced I'd say you need to get a new moral scale. *Shrug*.

Stop making idiotic assertions on my behalf and I'll stop calling them idiotic.

Simples.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The idea that Wiggins spent years deliberately being crap to save himself for the 2012 Tour is one of the silliest suggestions put forward in this thread so far.

I'm hoping no-one interpreted what I said as that, as that question appeared to be directed at me.

However track riders up until recently were much more feted in the uk that road-racers, even great ones like Robert Millar barely got a mention. You might watch a bit of the Tour once a year and that would be it. Cavendish started the increase in interest in the road, however for most cyclists with talent the focus would be the track. The simple fact is British fans don't look at Wiggins and see a transformation, they see a brilliant, multi-gold medal winning track cyclist taking that talent to the road and winning there.

This of course is an opinion that has been savaged before, and no doubt me saying it now it will be savaged again, citing the smaller talent pool in track cycling, and it being an inferior discipline with less physcial demands but from me I'd say *meh*, he's a good cyclist, he's always had a massive talent, but he is difficult to motivate and for years his main focus was the track.

That's why I'm far more comfortable with his 'transformation' than say Froome.

 

[SundayRider]

The idea that Wiggins spent years deliberately being crap to save himself for the 2012 Tour is one of the silliest suggestions put forward in this thread so far.

I wouldn't have said he was crap for years - his transformation started in 2009.

 

[Benotti69]

As for Wiggins arms. Good grief. There is nothing remotely out of the ordinary about people having the veins in their forearms showing, especially when it's hot. And I'm talking about just normal build, untrained, every day people here, not elite athletes who weigh their food.

His arms dont have a few veins showing it looks like something from a HR Giger drawing.

 

[RownhamHill]

His arms dont have a few veins showing it looks like something from a HR Giger drawing.

Wasn't familiar with HR Giger, so just been on google to look him up, only to discover he died on Monday from a fall. It's rather taken the steam out of any response, but suffice to say I don't agree, and I'll leave it there!

 

[stutue]

The idea that Wiggins spent years deliberately being crap to save himself for the 2012 Tour is one of the silliest suggestions put forward in this thread so far.

Yes it is silly. 2010 showed team inexperience, 2011 showed bad luck.

2012 showed no bad luck and 2 years of hard won experience.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yes it is silly. 2010 showed team inexperience, 2011 showed bad luck.

2012 showed no bad luck and 2 years of hard won experience.

2009 showed mysterious trainer / coach and riding for himself, ignoring the experienced team all year, eventually dropping the designated leader and finishing with the obvious dopers at the pointy end of the peloton.