Wigans goes there. Cadence!

[sniper]

Anybody remember when exactly was Walsh embedded with Sky?
Would be funny if it overlapped with one of Wiggins injections.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Anybody remember when exactly was Walsh embedded with Sky?
Would be funny if it overlapped with one of Wiggins injections.

Well, apparently Walsh agreed to see what was in Sky's medical chest at the 2013 Giro, I wonder how that went, lol! :lol:

USPS were declaring a great deal more medical kit to the Tour de France organisers than other teams were. I wonder if there’s any mileage in asking teams like Sky not just to declare the contents of their medical chest at the big races, but to publish them?

--
"Yes, absolutely.

"I think that would be a great thing to do. That’s a really good point - and in fact I’m going to ask Sky to do that.

"I’m going to say ‘give me a list of all the medical products you’re carrying and tell me what it’s for. I will do that at the Giro, I’m there from the 13th of May and staying on the race until the end.

"Brailsford was involved with the track team for eighteen years, and no one really said that they were doing it in any way other than correctly, and I don’t believe after all that time he would suddenly change his ethics.

"I was with some of the Sky guys in Tenerife when they were training this year, and they didn’t bring any medical personnel, none. And when you consider that Ferrari was the key man for USPS in Tenerife…"

http://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2013/04/24/david-walsh-interview2/

 

[sniper]

Nice find.
What a buffoon.

 

[sniper]

I somehow fear Walsh won't be seeing any of those investigative journalist of the year awards anytime soon.

 

[thehog]

Re:

I somehow fear Walsh won't be seeing any of those investigative journalist of the year awards anytime soon.

Don't worry, there is always the cruise ship tours...

 

[Norks74]

Re:

Anybody remember when exactly was Walsh embedded with Sky?
Would be funny if it overlapped with one of Wiggins injections.

It was 2013's TdF that Walsh was with them. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/david-walsh-questions-team-skys-ethics-in-sunday-times/ so I don't think they overlap.....

Wiggin's didn't race the TdF that year as quote 'The presence of a knee injury was disclosed to the public on 31 May, which forced Wiggins to forgo defending his title in the Tour de France. He subsequently suggested he may never ride the Tour again. He returned to racing at the Tour de Pologne, winning stage seven's 37 km (23.0 mi) time trial, 56 seconds ahead of second placed Cancellara.' Quote from Wikipedia.

 

[bigcog]

Leading medical experts in the field of asthma and allergic rhinitis (hay fever) have cast doubt over whether the drug prescribed to Sir Bradley Wiggins ahead of some of the biggest races in his career would actually have aided his performance as many have claimed in recent days.

They have, however, questioned whether it was an appropriate course of treatment, calling Team Sky’s application for three therapeutic use exemptions (TUEs) for the corticosteroid triamcinolone “bonkers” and akin to “using a sledgehammer to crack a nut”.

Dr Brian Lipworth, of the Scottish Centre for Respiratory Research, said he believed there was “no scientific reason” why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing.

“An anabolic steroid like testosterone puts on muscle mass but this is a catabolic steroid which breaks down muscle,” said Lipworth . “The benefits to David Millar were probably the fact that he was cheating by taking EPO and testosterone at the same time as he was using triamcinolone.”

Ian Pavord, a Professor of Respiratory Medicine at the University of Oxford, said he too doubted injected triamcinolone could help athletic performance as it would “reduce proximal muscle mass”.

Both men, however, described injected triamcinolone as a last resort, with potential side effects including “cataracts, high blood pressure, diabetes, bone-thinning and Achilles tendon ruptures”.

“It would cure his [Wiggins’s] hay fever, no doubt about that,” Lipworth said. “But the side effects are totally unacceptable in my humble opinion. We see patients who get side effects even on the higher potency inhaled corticosteroids like fluticasone, let alone injectables, which is why it’s utterly bonkers to prescribe it.

“Maybe he had tried everything and this was a last resort. But it still seems a bit bizarre to me when there are so many alternatives which are just as effective but with less severe adverse effects.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/20/sir-bradley-wigginss-last-resort-drug-was-utterly-bonkers-say-me/?

So the Drs in this article all reckon it won't give a performance boost or possibly minimal at best but that would need a biochemist/clinical pharmacologist to provide a definitive answer regarding a minimal effect, but then say they wouldn't prescribe in any case given the bad side effects etc ?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Anybody remember when exactly was Walsh embedded with Sky?
Would be funny if it overlapped with one of Wiggins injections.

It was 2013's TdF that Walsh was with them. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/david-walsh-questions-team-skys-ethics-in-sunday-times/ so I don't think they overlap.....

Wiggin's didn't race the TdF that year as quote 'The presence of a knee injury was disclosed to the public on 31 May, which forced Wiggins to forgo defending his title in the Tour de France. He subsequently suggested he may never ride the Tour again. He returned to racing at the Tour de Pologne, winning stage seven's 37 km (23.0 mi) time trial, 56 seconds ahead of second placed Cancellara.' Quote from Wikipedia.

:lol:

 

[Benotti69]

So the Drs in this article all reckon it won't give a performance boost or possibly minimal at best but that would need a biochemist/clinical pharmacologist to provide a definitive answer regarding a minimal effect, but then say they wouldn't prescribe in any case given the bad side effects etc ?

The selection of the triamcinolone is not logical for the stated purpose of the TUE, so it points strongly towards another motive. The unproven insinuation is that these injections were not a one-time thing

As for the opinions of the doctors quoted, the authors of the article should not be quoting respiratory therapists on the subject of doping. The statement :

“no scientific reason why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing"...

is just nonsense, it's known very well why this class of steroid drugs are abused in sports.

Yes, it is the establishment trying to fight back to protect Sir Wiggins and British success at Olympics. Remember Wiggins most decorated Olympian. Certain sections of British Society want to keep that success real and untarnished, even though they are a tad late.

Amazing how Sky never thought to employ respiratory therapists and instead went for a doping doctor.... :lol:

 

[bigcog]

So the Drs in this article all reckon it won't give a performance boost or possibly minimal at best but that would need a biochemist/clinical pharmacologist to provide a definitive answer regarding a minimal effect, but then say they wouldn't prescribe in any case given the bad side effects etc ?

The selection of the triamcinolone is not logical for the stated purpose of the TUE, so it points strongly towards another motive. The unproven insinuation is that these injections were not a one-time thing

As for the opinions of the doctors quoted, the authors of the article should not be quoting respiratory therapists on the subject of doping. The statement :

“no scientific reason why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing"...

is just nonsense, it's known very well why this class of steroid drugs are abused in sports.

Yes, it is the establishment trying to fight back to protect Sir Wiggins and British success at Olympics. Remember Wiggins most decorated Olympian. Certain sections of British Society want to keep that success real and untarnished, even though they are a tad late.

Amazing how Sky never thought to employ respiratory therapists and instead went for a doping doctor.... :lol:

I agree it doesn't stack up, and I did wonder whether they are really qualified to comment on the potential performance enhancement effect of triamcinolone.

 

[thehog]

So the Drs in this article all reckon it won't give a performance boost or possibly minimal at best but that would need a biochemist/clinical pharmacologist to provide a definitive answer regarding a minimal effect, but then say they wouldn't prescribe in any case given the bad side effects etc ?

The selection of the triamcinolone is not logical for the stated purpose of the TUE, so it points strongly towards another motive. The unproven insinuation is that these injections were not a one-time thing

As for the opinions of the doctors quoted, the authors of the article should not be quoting respiratory therapists on the subject of doping. The statement :

“no scientific reason why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing"...

is just nonsense, it's known very well why this class of steroid drugs are abused in sports.

Yes, it is the establishment trying to fight back to protect Sir Wiggins and British success at Olympics. Remember Wiggins most decorated Olympian. Certain sections of British Society want to keep that success real and untarnished, even though they are a tad late.

Amazing how Sky never thought to employ respiratory therapists and instead went for a doping doctor.... :lol:

I agree it doesn't stack up, and I did wonder whether they are really qualified to comment on the potential performance enhancement effect of triamcinolone.

Welcome to the dark side Mr. Bigcog!

 

[Catwhoorg]

I do wonder if they could screen some of his OOC samples for stimulants.
The sort banned IC, but not OOC.

You know just for information purposes.

 

[Rollthedice]

Let us remember the transformation of Wiggo, Tour 2009, in his own words:

The Spanish winner of the 2008 Tour finished 13 places behind Wiggins this year. And yet, as I remind him, Wiggins outclimbed Sastre and Cadel Evans. "Yeah," he grins, "and [Andreas] Klöden [a former Tour runner-up who finished sixth]. I beat all those guys. The first time I realised I could do it was on Verbier [on the middle Sunday]. I attacked Armstrong's group and I had an out-of-body experience there – where I saw myself leaving Klöden, Evans and Armstrong in the Tour de bloody France. It didn't feel right. It was very strange."

Wiggins talks about feeling so poorly, with his depleted body no longer able to fight the sniffles, sore throat and muscle-eating fatigue that followed his drastic weight-loss and ravaged immune system. He shed 20 pounds before the Tour started so that he could swap his power on the track for a skeletal lightness in the mountains. It is just one consequence of his epic tilt at sporting greatness. "I've been running at 4% body fat the last few weeks – and that's quite dangerous. I'm starting to get sick now, a little ill, just from being run down. I'm just glad I'm now free to put a few pounds back on."

"But Lance is the only bike rider I've ever met who has that aura. He's like no one else. But we got on fine because I treat him like a normal person."

"Armstrong is likely to be interested in Cavendish and Wiggins when he finally retires and concentrates on building his own team. If Cavendish speaks of his awe for Armstrong, Wiggins is more measured. "It would be interesting to ride for someone like Lance but Andy Schleck is going there. And after this Tour I've reached the point where I need to be the leader. I've gone up to another level – of Tour contender status – and once people wave chequebooks at you it changes a lot."

 

[PremierAndrew]

Just a couple of words from good friend Cav in his autobiography on injections:

"In 2011 the UCI became the first governing body in any sport to ban all injections of even legal products aiding recovery. There was a feeling in cycling that a ‘needle culture’ had been allowed to develop over several decades and anecdotal evidence suggested that legal injections were often a precursor to more serious stuff.
...
Even so, I welcome the needle ban: anything to ensure that the doping plague that had taken a grip of cycling doesn’t return; and anything to hopefully make people realise that we’re light years ahead of other sports in the war on drugs."

 

[MmeDesgrange]

Interesting quote about Wiggins having a nebulizer during the Giro. Wonder why the same, far more effective treatment, wasn't given to Froome for his persistent cough after the Romandie prologue, rather than oral prednisone?

 

[Random Direction]

Re:

Interesting quote about Wiggins having a nebulizer during the Giro. Wonder why the same, far more effective treatment, wasn't given to Froome for his persistent cough after the Romandie prologue, rather than oral prednisone?

Oh cool, Wiggins took the Norwegian approach to get as much of the medication into his bloodstream as possible (see the Doping in XC Skiing thread for more info, except the cold air excuse doesn't work).

He is looking dirtier and dirtier, finding every marginal doping gain.

 

[_nm___]

Dr Brian Lipworth, of the Scottish Centre for Respiratory Research, said he believed there was “no scientific reason” why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/20/sir-bradley-wigginss-last-resort-drug-was-utterly-bonkers-say-me/?

it's unfortunate to ask a respiratory specialist about doping

1 - Acute weight loss, as testified by both Jörg Jaksche in his cyclingtips interview and also by David Millar, and as expected, because it is common “scientific” knowledge that corticoids are catabolic

2 - puts you on a high, as testified by both JJ and DM, and as a generally known effect of corticoids (just Google up the expression “steroid euphoria with glucocorticoids” or look up the side effects of triamcinolone)

3 - Anti-inflammatory effects, as testified by JJ, and as a generally known and undisputed effect of corticoids, so much so that they are actually used as anti-inflammatory agents in a number of medical conditions


I think that item 2 above could well have come as the result of the riders being on both triamcinolone and testosterone at the same time because testosterone leads to a high anyway. But for items 1 and 3, I’m not so sure that they were influenced or enhanced by the EPO or testosterone that the riders were concurrently taking.

 

[_nm___]

Ian Pavord, a Professor of Respiratory Medicine at the University of Oxford, said he too doubted injected triamcinolone could help athletic performance as it would “reduce proximal muscle mass”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/20/sir-bradley-wigginss-last-resort-drug-was-utterly-bonkers-say-me/?

Yes, it does reduce muscle mass. But not enough to put team sky off using it

They simply wouldn’t have used it if they thought the loss of muscle mass would harm his performance. I think we can safely say that, in their opinion, which was based on sports science knowledge, muscle loss would be significantly outweighed by the anti-allergic properties, or by any other property that triamcinolone might have

I bet they're glad they didn't ask this guy (professor of respiratory medicine at oxford) for advice

 

[sniper]

Ian Pavord, a Professor of Respiratory Medicine at the University of Oxford, said he too doubted injected triamcinolone could help athletic performance as it would “reduce proximal muscle mass”.

You can lose a lot of fat with diet and exercise. Losing muscle weight is the hard part.

And as JV reminds us, sustainable power is not reduced by decreased muscle mass.

+1

 

[sniper]

Lees lowdown on wiggins
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/features/lowdown-wiggins-sky-doping
"removed from reality"

 

[bigcog]

So the Drs in this article all reckon it won't give a performance boost or possibly minimal at best but that would need a biochemist/clinical pharmacologist to provide a definitive answer regarding a minimal effect, but then say they wouldn't prescribe in any case given the bad side effects etc ?

The selection of the triamcinolone is not logical for the stated purpose of the TUE, so it points strongly towards another motive. The unproven insinuation is that these injections were not a one-time thing

As for the opinions of the doctors quoted, the authors of the article should not be quoting respiratory therapists on the subject of doping. The statement :

“no scientific reason why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing"...

is just nonsense, it's known very well why this class of steroid drugs are abused in sports.

Yes, it is the establishment trying to fight back to protect Sir Wiggins and British success at Olympics. Remember Wiggins most decorated Olympian. Certain sections of British Society want to keep that success real and untarnished, even though they are a tad late.

Amazing how Sky never thought to employ respiratory therapists and instead went for a doping doctor.... :lol:

I agree it doesn't stack up, and I did wonder whether they are really qualified to comment on the potential performance enhancement effect of triamcinolone.

Welcome to the dark side Mr. Bigcog!

Well sometimes if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck

 

[sniper]

Speaking of intravenous injections, anyone recall this episode? Plaster right on the sweetspot:

I posted a dubious photo of Brad Wiggins, screengrabbed during an interview with Ned Boulting on July 21st, 2012. The interview took place after the punishing individual time trial, which Wiggins won by a country mile. We had an expert examine the photo, who stated it’s the median cubital vein that’s been tapped based on the position of the plaster.

Why is the plaster there?

The UCI passed a no needles policy in May of 2011 which stated the following (quote courtesy of cyclingnews.com article by Stephen Farrand):

The UCI Regulations now prohibit injections that have the aim of artificially improving performance or helping recovery. It means riders can no longer inject vitamins, sugars, enzymes, amino acids or antioxidants to aid recovery. It is hoped the ban will contribute to the eradication of doping by greatly reducing the use of injections in cycling.

Herein lies the problem. No one asked why Wiggins had a plaster, and the interesting fact is that Boulting, who conducted the interview, didn’t find the plaster on Wiggins arm as strange. According to sources within the Tour de France, there wasn’t any blood drawn for anti-doping purposes on that day. So why did Wiggins have a plaster on his arm? It couldn’t have been for medicinal purposes, as a Team Sky doctor supported and asserted the no needles policy as “fantastic” during an interview with Lionel Birnie that appeared in the August 2011 edition of Cyclesport Magazine.

http://wielrennen.startpagina.nl/forum/topic/1847459/gebruikte-wiggins-doping/

 

[sniper]

duplicate

 

[veji11]

Gee, the situation really doesn't look good for Wiggins...

 

[MatParker117]

Re:

Speaking of intravenous injections, anyone recall this episode? Plaster right on the sweetspot:

I posted a dubious photo of Brad Wiggins, screengrabbed during an interview with Ned Boulting on July 21st, 2012. The interview took place after the punishing individual time trial, which Wiggins won by a country mile. We had an expert examine the photo, who stated it’s the median cubital vein that’s been tapped based on the position of the plaster.

Why is the plaster there?

The UCI passed a no needles policy in May of 2011 which stated the following (quote courtesy of cyclingnews.com article by Stephen Farrand):

The UCI Regulations now prohibit injections that have the aim of artificially improving performance or helping recovery. It means riders can no longer inject vitamins, sugars, enzymes, amino acids or antioxidants to aid recovery. It is hoped the ban will contribute to the eradication of doping by greatly reducing the use of injections in cycling.

Herein lies the problem. No one asked why Wiggins had a plaster, and the interesting fact is that Boulting, who conducted the interview, didn’t find the plaster on Wiggins arm as strange. According to sources within the Tour de France, there wasn’t any blood drawn for anti-doping purposes on that day. So why did Wiggins have a plaster on his arm? It couldn’t have been for medicinal purposes, as a Team Sky doctor supported and asserted the no needles policy as “fantastic” during an interview with Lionel Birnie that appeared in the August 2011 edition of Cyclesport Magazine.

http://wielrennen.startpagina.nl/forum/topic/1847459/gebruikte-wiggins-doping/

Top 5 in GC were blood tested.