Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[saganist]

crash debunked

https://twitter.com/Peter_SagFan/status/848827738194673664

 

[RedheadDane]

Surely the crash wasn't debunked. Just the cause of it.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

crash debunked

https://twitter.com/Peter_SagFan/status/848827738194673664

Looks like Sagan 100% to blame. Trying to steal an advantage by going off the cobbles, but played with fire and got burnt. If you ride so close to the barriers then you're asking for trouble.

Really got to feel for GVA there though. He was taking a much more sensible line, if that clip is representative.

 

[Jancouver]

Here is a prove the crash was caused by the spectator's jacket ... its a shame.

https://www.facebook.com/PeterSagan/videos/10155273969579467/

 

[Ricco']

Re:

Here is a prove the crash was caused by the spectator's jacket ... its a shame.

https://www.facebook.com/PeterSagan/videos/10155273969579467/

No, the crash was caused by Sagan. The jacket was still. Maybe it shouldn't be there but when a rider rides so close to the barriers and the public, he must be aware of his surroundings and the obstacle was there for a long time and it was clearly visible. If the rider was focused on the dangers ahead, he had the opportunity to analyze the situation, change course and avoid the obstacle.

 

[Jancouver]

Re: Re:

Here is a prove the crash was caused by the spectator's jacket ... its a shame.

https://www.facebook.com/PeterSagan/videos/10155273969579467/

No, the crash was caused by Sagan. The jacket was still. Maybe it shouldn't be there but when a rider rides so close to the barriers and the public, he must be aware of his surroundings and the obstacle was there for a long time and it was clearly visible. If the rider was focused on the dangers ahead, he had the opportunity to analyze the situation, change course and avoid the obstacle.

You are mixing apples with oranges. The jacked caused the crash. Was that Sagan's fault? Yes.

Same like when SKY's front wheel collapsed during the TT. What caused the crash? The front wheel failure. Who's fault was that? You can blame the team or the manufacturer but that was what caused the crash.

Same with Sagan. The jacket caused the crash. Was it his fault for riding close to the barrier, yes.

Again, lets not mix apples with oranges ...

 

[Ricco']

Re: Re:

Here is a prove the crash was caused by the spectator's jacket ... its a shame.

https://www.facebook.com/PeterSagan/videos/10155273969579467/

No, the crash was caused by Sagan. The jacket was still. Maybe it shouldn't be there but when a rider rides so close to the barriers and the public, he must be aware of his surroundings and the obstacle was there for a long time and it was clearly visible. If the rider was focused on the dangers ahead, he had the opportunity to analyze the situation, change course and avoid the obstacle.

You are mixing apples with oranges. The jacked caused the crash. Was that Sagan's fault? Yes.

Same like when SKY's front wheel collapsed during the TT. What caused the crash? The front wheel failure. Who's fault was that? You can blame the team or the manufacturer but that was what caused the crash.

Same with Sagan. The jacket caused the crash. Was it his fault for riding close to the barrier, yes.

Again, lets not mix apples with oranges ...

I agree, we are saying the same thing with different expressions, problem of native tongues.

I said "caused" as "it was his fault".

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

If memory serves, last year at the Ronde he was also surprisingly casual about positioning during what could easily have been key moments of the race with ~55-60 km to go, but he got lucky and nothing happened. This year it was different.

I don't remember that, but as I've noted before, he seems way too nonchalant (or casual). He was close to dead last going into Boonenberg, only due to his god given abilities he was distancing everybody bar Naesen and GVA. Nowhere to be found on Muur as well - it would have been the easiest thing in the world just to mark the QS team attack by being in the top 15-20. Absolutely no need to risk that.

I don't know what the reason for it. Fear of crashing, bad team or simply just him being to nonchalant about it all because it sure has hell doesn't increase his chances to start some of the most important hellingen on the backfoot.

 

[Netserk]

Taaienberg doesn't make any sense, but the Muur could be for saving energy and bad team. It's not like they (Tom and Phil especially) took it easy to get there in the right position.

 

[Valv.Piti]

But there was a relatively big chance of it happening on the Muur considering just how strong QS was and how weak Bora is/was.nIt wasn't particularly surprising that they would try something along those lines. Had he just casually marked them (not that it would have cost that much energy-wise, at all) he would basically have been good until the 2nd Kwaremont at 55 km left in the race. I just don't understand it. Champions like Boonen would never, ever have let that happen.

Can't let his legs carry him through everything against this competition. Gilbert and GVA are hardcore and just as good as him this year (if not better), so are the rest of Quick Step. Gotta play it smarter if he wants to win against those guys.

 

[Netserk]

Agreed.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

But there was a relatively big chance of it happening on the Muur considering just how strong QS was and how weak Bora is/was.nIt wasn't particularly surprising that they would try something along those lines. Had he just casually marked them (not that it would have cost that much energy-wise, at all) he would basically have been good until the 2nd Kwaremont at 55 km left in the race. I just don't understand it. Champions like Boonen would never, ever have let that happen.

Can't let his legs carry him through everything against this competition. Gilbert and GVA are hardcore and just as good as him this year (if not better), so are the rest of Quick Step. Gotta play it smarter if he wants to win against those guys.

Great post. I think it's become a bit of a mental thing, and will keeping getting worse at least until he gets another big win. He's been criticized for losing so many races in the last couple of years - notably Omloop and MSR last month - because he has worked too hard, that now he's going too far the other way and being overly cautious in terms of saving energy.

Especially with the mind games that Quickstep played - he probably thought they would try to make him waste energy on the Muur and other earlier climbs, so he sat back to not get provoked. But they ended up double bluffing him and sending their A cards up the road. The stuff he said about sitting back when Trek joined the chase on top of the Muur, instead of just closing the small gap himself, also suggests he had muddled thinking. Sagan at his instinctive best would have just soloed across the gap and worried about the consequences of the effort later.

 

[loge1884]

Re:

Here is a prove the crash was caused by the spectator's jacket ... its a shame.

https://www.facebook.com/PeterSagan/videos/10155273969579467/

honestly what I see is something else: there are some stands of the barrier which are further into the way than others ... maybe the jacket was taking some view, so PS didn't notice it until it was too late .... the jacket itself did certainly not directly cause the fall ... btw, Naesen also seems to crash into the same stand (whereas GVA was brought down by PS) ...

 

[wayahead]

Re: Re:

But there was a relatively big chance of it happening on the Muur considering just how strong QS was and how weak Bora is/was.nIt wasn't particularly surprising that they would try something along those lines. Had he just casually marked them (not that it would have cost that much energy-wise, at all) he would basically have been good until the 2nd Kwaremont at 55 km left in the race. I just don't understand it. Champions like Boonen would never, ever have let that happen.

Can't let his legs carry him through everything against this competition. Gilbert and GVA are hardcore and just as good as him this year (if not better), so are the rest of Quick Step. Gotta play it smarter if he wants to win against those guys.

Great post. I think it's become a bit of a mental thing, and will keeping getting worse at least until he gets another big win. He's been criticized for losing so many races in the last couple of years - notably Omloop and MSR last month - because he has worked too hard, that now he's going too far the other way and being overly cautious in terms of saving energy.

Especially with the mind games that Quickstep played - he probably thought they would try to make him waste energy on the Muur and other earlier climbs, so he sat back to not get provoked. But they ended up double bluffing him and sending their A cards up the road. The stuff he said about sitting back when Trek joined the chase on top of the Muur, instead of just closing the small gap himself, also suggests he had muddled thinking. Sagan at his instinctive best would have just soloed across the gap and worried about the consequences of the effort later.

Regarding Sagan, he needs to sort out his tactics: either he makes the race or he marks the other favourites and that's right as well: staying in between disconnected from the race and always bad positioned will not bring him any win.

Very good summaries, all of you.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Here is a prove the crash was caused by the spectator's jacket ... its a shame.

https://www.facebook.com/PeterSagan/videos/10155273969579467/

The crash might have been caused by a jacket, but it happened because Sagan was too close to the barrier.

 

[trucido]

Re:

But there was a relatively big chance of it happening on the Muur considering just how strong QS was and how weak Bora is/was.nIt wasn't particularly surprising that they would try something along those lines. Had he just casually marked them (not that it would have cost that much energy-wise, at all) he would basically have been good until the 2nd Kwaremont at 55 km left in the race. I just don't understand it. Champions like Boonen would never, ever have let that happen.

Can't let his legs carry him through everything against this competition. Gilbert and GVA are hardcore and just as good as him this year (if not better), so are the rest of Quick Step. Gotta play it smarter if he wants to win against those guys.

GvA was even further back than Sagan. So he was smart and Sagan wasn't?

 

[d-s3]

Sagan is immensely talented physically, he has awesome instincts, but when thinking is required, he loses to some of his opponents.
You can't get it all, I guess...

And he became significantly frustrated. Both by opponents and by media.
He needs a big win to get rid of the pressure and to ride "for fun" again.

 

[tomorrow]

Re:

Sagan is immensely talented physically, he has awesome instincts, but when thinking is required, he loses to some of his opponents.
You can't get it all, I guess...

And he became significantly frustrated. Both by opponents and by media.
He needs a big win to get rid of the pressure and to ride "for fun" again.

Hi, exactly. In slovakia, there are rumours, that he's not the brightest, nor his father, ... Somebody has already said it here, you can't get it all. I also think the for him, it would be best to ride with his instinct and for fun. He will certainly win more that way, although he will come 2nd same often. He should leave the thinking on his DS, and that only as far as the fundamental tactics are concerned.

Let's hope, he will get better till sunday, because as I have read about his injuries, the cobbles of P-R will hurt the hip like hell. Although, it is a little suspicious, that went public with it. It smells with some further mind games.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

Sagan is immensely talented physically, he has awesome instincts, but when thinking is required, he loses to some of his opponents.
You can't get it all, I guess...

And he became significantly frustrated. Both by opponents and by media.
He needs a big win to get rid of the pressure and to ride "for fun" again.

Hi, exactly. In slovakia, there are rumours, that he's not the brightest, nor his father, ... Somebody has already said it here, you can't get it all. I also think the for him, it would be best to ride with his instinct and for fun. He will certainly win more that way, although he will come 2nd same often. He should leave the thinking on his DS, and that only as far as the fundamental tactics are concerned.

Let's hope, he will get better till sunday, because as I have read about his injuries, the cobbles of P-R will hurt the hip like hell. Although, it is a little suspicious, that went public with it. It smells with some further mind games.

WTF?

 

[Dragontearz]

Re: Re:

Hi, exactly. In slovakia, there are rumours, that he's not the brightest, nor his father, ... Somebody has already said it here, you can't get it all. I also think the for him, it would be best to ride with his instinct and for fun. He will certainly win more that way, although he will come 2nd same often. He should leave the thinking on his DS, and that only as far as the fundamental tactics are concerned.

I dont think intelligence matters more than instincts in racing. It's not like most of the riders are geniuses who are calculating all variables of possible outcomes of the race.

 

[loge1884]

I do not believe being a rocket scientist would be of any help in winning cycling races .... all you need is a certain "street smartness", which has little to do with intelligence per se ....

 

[SKSemtex]

I still do not understand how this "stupid" Sagan can be on podium practically in every third race he enters. Especially in TDF and especially in bunch sprints, how can he as non-sprinter alone without any train beat all those "smart" cyclists. Probably luck.
Yes, he is definitely dumb and without any street smartness.

 

[El Pistolero]

I still do not understand how this "stupid" Sagan can be on podium practically in every third race he enters. Especially in TDF and especially in bunch sprints, how can he as non-sprinter alone without any train beat all those "smart" cyclists. Probably luck.
Yes, he is definitely dumb and without any street smartness.

You don't need to be smart to win or place well in mass sprints. You need to be smart, strong and lucky to win a Monument though. Gilbert was all 3 of those things last Sunday.

 

[rhubroma]

I think Sagan is physically "intelligent," but lacks the mental acumen when placed in situations in which he has to "out-smart" his rivals in the big objectives. In other words his incredible physical "intelligence" makes him potentially a winner of so many races, whereas his wanting mental "intelligence" sees him loose (too many) truly big events his otherwise athletic prowess should make foregone conclusions.

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Re: Re:

Sagan is immensely talented physically, he has awesome instincts, but when thinking is required, he loses to some of his opponents.
You can't get it all, I guess...

And he became significantly frustrated. Both by opponents and by media.
He needs a big win to get rid of the pressure and to ride "for fun" again.

Hi, exactly. In slovakia, there are rumours, that he's not the brightest, nor his father, ... Somebody has already said it here, you can't get it all. I also think the for him, it would be best to ride with his instinct and for fun. He will certainly win more that way, although he will come 2nd same often. He should leave the thinking on his DS, and that only as far as the fundamental tactics are concerned.

Let's hope, he will get better till sunday, because as I have read about his injuries, the cobbles of P-R will hurt the hip like hell. Although, it is a little suspicious, that went public with it. It smells with some further mind games.

WTF?

Its funny because if you made puppet accounts to troll AC they'd shut the whole forum down.