Riis close to Collapse after Contador 'surprise'?

[sniper]

Yeah, although it would be glorious, I've little hope that this leads to the long awaited removal of Riis from the peloton.

if the fricture between Riis and UCI would come to increase (for whatever reason) in the coming weeks, then we might see Riis' son testing positive for some innocent masking agent at some point.

 

[airstream]

Seems like USADA сan find sanctions for any. They might easily try to shake Basso or the Schlecks later, surely if Riis interests them. But they will start from Contador.

 

[Benotti69]

Shouldn't this have had it's own thread?
There's a really big difference between Riis having helped his riders doping and a team betting its entire budget on a rider which UCI hides has been taken for doping.
Jonathan Vaugters thought Contador was clean from data the UCI has presented him, had he won the bidding war we would no longer have Garmin. A rather important point which get drowned in Riis' ill doings.



Yes and probably not the best thing to come out during Fränk's case.

Imagine Vaughter's trusting UCI date. Bet he wont explain that one.

I hope that the Danish media and German media take Riis to task.

Tinkoff? Man the smell from him and his associatiosn with doping is strong.

 

[sniper]

Imagine Vaughter's trusting UCI date. Bet he wont explain that one.

I hope that the Danish media and German media take Riis to task.

Tinkoff? Man the smell from him and his associatiosn with doping is strong.

Wasn't it San Millán who recommended Contador?

In his whole career, says San Millán, one athlete stands out in particular, a young Spanish rider he tested almost 10 years ago. When the test got really hard, this rider stood up on the pedals, desperate. “Most of the time, that means the guy’s done, like in a minute or two,” San Millán says. This kid kept going out of the saddle for a full 25 minutes longer. His name was Alberto Contador, and his signature is on a yellow jersey in a frame behind San Millán’s desk.

http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/transcendent-pain

Originally Posted by JV1973. I know Inigo San Millan always told me that Contador was the most gifted cyclist ever tested

 

[OctaBech]

that is a good point, but what does it have to do with Riis' ill doings?

Ill doing as in cheating, not that he lost the will to gt out of bed.

Imagine Vaughter's trusting UCI date. Bet he wont explain that one.

I hope that the Danish media and German media take Riis to task.

Tinkoff? Man the smell from him and his associatiosn with doping is strong.

I'm no mind reader, so I only know what JV told us.

For the accusations against Riis and especially the UCI (as they are supposed to police the sport) I hope it doesn't stop here or at the medias, propper investigation is needed.

Seems like USADA сan find sanctions for any. They might easily try to shake Basso or the Schlecks later, surely if Riis interests them. But they will start from Contador.

I thought they only could prosecute those with American license, but under the current circumstances I would personally prefer them to handled the case.

 

[Benotti69]

Wasn't it San Millán who recommended Contador?

http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/transcendent-pain

Yeah, 10 years ago would be at least 2002, the era of epo doping.

Nope nothing to see here

I dont suppose the German media have picked up on the Riis accusations yet?

 

[hrotha]

Reading between the lines of what JV said, it wasn't so much that he thought AC was clean, but that he was one of the most gifted athletes in the peloton and would be able to deliver the goods while riding clean.

 

[sniper]

Yeah, 10 years ago would be at least 2002, the era of epo doping.

Nope nothing to see here

I dont suppose the German media have picked up on the Riis accusations yet?

yeah, it's funny how a cycling doctor who gets kicked out of several teams for his stringent anti-doping stance has a signed yellow yersey of a caught doper on his wall.

 

[neineinei]

Danish Anti Doping Agency says Hamiltons information is interesting and makes sense, but that they can't act upon it.

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/add-hamilton-bekraefter-formodninger

- It is always interesting, although this information comes with a delay. It gives us a clear picture of what happened, and we just have to say that our conjecture has now been confirmed. Legally, I do not think we can use it as much, but it gives a better understanding of what's taken place, and that it was systematic, at least in the years under Tyler Hamilton. For Bjarne Riis right now and here are the consequences probably not serious, but the new information is listed, says Jens Evald, chairman of Anti Doping Denmark.

- It is important to get these pieces of the puzzle to get an overview. We must of course recognize that we do not know about doping in cycling is descending or still exist in great style on the teams. A few years ago we thought that it was about to be destroyed, but the story turned out to be quite different.

- In general, I think that it should be appropriate to ask whether, if we can accept that sports directors, as both have used doping and encouraged it, may be allowed to stay in the sport. This question the International Cycling Union should ask themselves, says Jens Evald.

 

[Benotti69]

Danish Anti Doping Agency says Hamiltons information is interesting and makes sense, but that they can't act upon it.

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/add-hamilton-bekraefter-formodninger

- It is always interesting, although this information comes with a delay. It gives us a clear picture of what happened, and we just have to say that our conjecture has now been confirmed. Legally, I do not think we can use it as much, but it gives a better understanding of what's taken place, and that it was systematic, at least in the years under Tyler Hamilton. For Bjarne Riis right now and here are the consequences probably not serious, but the new information is listed, says Jens Evald, chairman of Anti Doping Denmark.

- It is important to get these pieces of the puzzle to get an overview. We must of course recognize that we do not know about doping in cycling is descending or still exist in great style on the teams. A few years ago we thought that it was about to be destroyed, but the story turned out to be quite different.

- In general, I think that it should be appropriate to ask whether, if we can accept that sports directors, as both have used doping and encouraged it, may be allowed to stay in the sport. This question the International Cycling Union should ask themselves, says Jens Evald.

Pathetic really. Sounds like they have Riis's back.

I would have expected something much more strongly worded rather than this hand wringing, it is so long ago we cannot do anything......

 

[hrotha]

Least they could do is launch an official investigation. Question Hamilton, Jaksche, Riis, and as many former and current riders as possible, and see what comes out of that if more people are willing to spill the beans (unlikely as that would be).

 

[ToreBear]

Pathetic really. Sounds like they have Riis's back.

I would have expected something much more strongly worded rather than this hand wringing, it is so long ago we cannot do anything......

Yep. A team director partaking in organized doping and coverup is a conspiracy in my book, and is in my way of thinking a much worse offence than an individual rider doping. But there is the problem of gathering evidence. Perhaps they are hoping the UCI takes the lead?

 

[Runitout]

Reading between the lines of what JV said, it wasn't so much that he thought AC was clean, but that he was one of the most gifted athletes in the peloton and would be able to deliver the goods while riding clean.

I think you're bang on the money.

 

[JPM London]

More about the Riis angle:

Kurt-Asle Arvesen:

"It's not the impression I have personally by Bjarne. He has always been fair to me, "

"I have the impression that Tyler Hamilton has taken a break with its past. I can not see any reason why he should write the things he does, if it is not right. "

"I have a clear conscience because I worked hard for some of those guys. It is very disappointing if it turns out that some of them have cheated


Carlos Sastre:

"- But in the end, it was Hamilton who took the chance. It is not Bjarne's fault, it's Hamilton's fault. If I told you that you had to jump off a bridge, would you do it, Sastre asked rhetorically.

Have Riis ever introduced you to Fuentes?
- I did not go over the bridge.
But he introduced you to Fuentes?
- No, I do not know Fuentes.
Spoken Riis ever on Fuentes?
- Never.
Did he ever about doping?
- No."

 

[JPM London]

Arvesen sounds very honest and rational - he can't believe it, but can't imagine it not to be true either. If Tyler's true it sounds like only the key rider(s) were the ones getting the "Spanish Treatment"...

Sastre does sound a bit weird, but obviously depends on whatever language they interviewed him in. I'm guessing it'd have been in English, which clearly means it's bound to go hay-wire... Anyway - if he's not pulling one, then it sounds as if "practices" changed after Basso - obviously can't use Fuentes when he's been outed in Puerto! On the other hand - if he's full of it - it's looking murkier and murkier...

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Interesting that ex Riis riders don't seem to feel the need to personally attack Hamilton or pretend what he is saying isn't true.

My guess would be that Riis stopped introducing riders to dodgy doctors after Puerto. It was 2007 when CSC took part in the study that shaped the biopassport. I like to hope there has been no team initiated charging since then.

 

[Big Doopie]

Reading between the lines of what JV said, it wasn't so much that he thought AC was clean, but that he was one of the most gifted athletes in the peloton and would be able to deliver the goods while riding clean.

if he were willing to ride clean.

clearly he is not.

and he has not been the same since leaving the umbrella protection of bruyneel (and therefore uci) either...

 

[webvan]

More about the Riis angle:

Carlos Sastre:

"- But in the end, it was Hamilton who took the chance. It is not Bjarne's fault, it's Hamilton's fault. If I told you that you had to jump off a bridge, would you do it, Sastre asked rhetorically.

Have Riis ever introduced you to Fuentes?
- I did not go over the bridge.
But he introduced you to Fuentes?
- No, I do not know Fuentes.
Spoken Riis ever on Fuentes?
- Never.
Did he ever about doping?
- No."

Something's not right here, Sastre isn't doubting that Riis encouraged Hamilton to dope, yet says he was never encouraged himself when he rode there at the same time? He's lying (why wouldn't he since he was never caught). I wonder what Jalabert would have to say about Riis...

 

[ToreBear]

Something's not right here, Sastre isn't doubting that Riis encouraged Hamilton to dope, yet says he was never encouraged himself when he rode there at the same time? He's lying (why wouldn't he since he was never caught). I wonder what Jalabert would have to say about Riis...

From the Interview it sounds to me like Sastre knew very well what was going on in cycling but was very principled not to cross the line, hence he would not have given Riis any oppurtunity to give him any numbers.

From Tylers story it sounds like Riis only gave riders Fuentes number after he was sure they really wanted it. I get the impression that he was not going to pressure them to dope.

 

[webvan]

Yes, but then how did he think he could compete with talented and EPO doped up guys ? Was he that talented? If so why did he collapse completely in 2009 after his sole TDF title? Something's not right here...

We're all interested in getting the nitty gritty on the sport we love but at the end of the day it's probably best to keep quiet (like Jalabert) unless you have to (got caught doping) than to treat fans as idiots like Sastre is doing.

 

[hrotha]

He was 34 in 2009. Maybe old age caught up with him. Used to be riders were really old and in free fall at about 32-33, but now of course everybody can be a successful pro at 40.

It does sound like Sastre's dodging the question:

Have Riis ever introduced you to Fuentes?
- I did not go over the bridge.
But he introduced you to Fuentes?
- No, I do not know Fuentes.

Maybe he only starts lying when he explicitly says Riis never talked to him about doping/Fuentes. Or maybe he is lying about not going over the bridge, since not all clients have been identified. But who knows. Maybe he's even telling the truth.

 

[JPM London]

Interesting that ex Riis riders don't seem to feel the need to personally attack Hamilton or pretend what he is saying isn't true.

My guess would be that Riis stopped introducing riders to dodgy doctors after Puerto. It was 2007 when CSC took part in the study that shaped the biopassport. I like to hope there has been no team initiated charging since then.

I think it's very interesting too. Hopefully it's simply because they know Tyler doped, they know Riis doped and they know the story is not unlikely. So while they might themselves not have seen or witnessed a thing it could still be a possibility. I hope you're right in your second part. It's extremely difficult believing Birillo did it on his own... There's still that funny transfer from the Schleck and the rumour he and Riis were seen in Madrid...

Something's not right here, Sastre isn't doubting that Riis encouraged Hamilton to dope, yet says he was never encouraged himself when he rode there at the same time? He's lying (why wouldn't he since he was never caught). I wonder what Jalabert would have to say about Riis...

I don't think you can deduce Sastre isn't doubting Tyler's story. In the article it seems he wasn't even aware there was a book on its way. If he felt a need to lie or evade he could do that more clearly without a problem. I do actually think he's a bit perplexed and it fits nicely with a story line where doping was organised, but very well hidden for all but the few involved. I'm also very very interested in JaJa's time with the team - in the end I think if Tyler's story is true, then there's not much doubt that Riis also helped improve JaJa's programme - I don't think there's any reason to suspect JaJa was clean in his career...

From the Interview it sounds to me like Sastre knew very well what was going on in cycling but was very principled not to cross the line, hence he would not have given Riis any oppurtunity to give him any numbers.

From Tylers story it sounds like Riis only gave riders Fuentes number after he was sure they really wanted it. I get the impression that he was not going to pressure them to dope.

That's my current take as well... It also brings back to mind JJs story about the skilift.

According to Tyler he waited to discuss doping until he heard Riis bring it up on his own. While that could be taken to show a lot of initiative on Riis' part, we also know that Tyler came from Postal - there's no way Riis hadn't already figured out Tyler was heavily on a programme before joining CSC- and we know Tyler wanted to win over Armstrong in the Tour. Any realistic and experienced DS at that point in time would clearly know what that ambition entailed and required. It's not like they both didn't realise what had to be done. It's not like Riis pushed a clean, innocent rider to dope. I don't think in a million years he would do that. That's what D'Hondt tried with him and he was livid. On the subject of doping Riis is always talking about the "personal choice", the "personal responsibility". I think he was happy to help those who wanted it, but didn't discuss it with those who weren't.

Yes, but then how did he think he could compete with talented and EPO doped up guys ? Was he that talented? If so why did he collapse completely in 2009 after his sole TDF title? Something's not right here...

We're all interested in getting the nitty gritty on the sport we love but at the end of the day it's probably best to keep quiet (like Jalabert) unless you have to (got caught doping) than to treat fans as idiots like Sastre is doing.

I think he was a really talented climber. Don't forget that he's been riding 2 or 3 grand tours every year for a decade. He's been a consistent top 10 for just as long. He's got very, very consistent riding in GTs. ALSO note that he's never, ever been even moderately good at TT'ing except for one time when he had the opportunity of winning the Tour (and I'm not even sure if he did a great TT or Evans did one below his level?). He only won the Tour when there was no Contador, the fallen King had retired and other dope-heads were out - or being taken out - of the game as well. The fact that he won and the way that he won even made LA put his cycling shoes back on with snide comments about how weak they all were.

I'm not saying he's clean beyond any doubt, but if there's a single believable Tour win since LeMond - this is it in my eyes...

Also - as to "completely collapsing in 2009" I'm not sure I would necessarily call a 2nd in the Giro in the first year on a completely newly started team which he was himself very central to creating and building from scratch such a collapse. Neither would I call 3 GTs with two top tens and one top 20 in 2010 a collapse. Not even 2011 would I call a collapse - bad final year? Maybe should have stopped the year before? Yes - collapse? No.

Maybe he only starts lying when he explicitly says Riis never talked to him about doping/Fuentes. Or maybe he is lying about not going over the bridge, since not all clients have been identified. But who knows. Maybe he's even telling the truth.

All of them very interesting maybes... More should come out from under the wood-works, shouldn't it?

 

[JPM London]

More from Danish Media:

Jaksche:

"German Jörg Jaksche ran successfully for Riis at Team CSC in 2004, when he switched to Spanish Liberty Seguros in 2005, he was a client of Fuentes in Madrid under the pseudonym Bella. Soon it became clear to him that he shared doctor with several of his former teammates.

- During one of my first meetings with Fuentes said that he was surprised that I did not already last year had been sent to see him by Team CSC, says Jörg Jaksche Ekstra Bladet.

- I could not help but assume that he had already received visits from several riders who had been referred to him by management at Team CSC. And he had thus also expected to see me at the clinic sooner."

Jakob Piil:

"So you have not even been in contact with Fuentes and can recognize Hamilton's accusations?

- No, I have not. As I said, when we've been together, I know that Bjarne has told and has entered the anti-doping, and that he would not tolerate doping on the team. It was, I remained to. So I can not recognize Hamilton's allegations, and it is hard to imagine that it would have happened.

- Hamilton writes a book, so he will probably want to make money. But conversely, why write a book where you're lying? It's hard to make head or tail of, says Jakob Piil."

 

[JPM London]

And more... Floodgates opening?

Johnny Weltz:

"Weltz was demoted to a desk job at Team CSC in 2004, after he had been sports director. And he left the team in 2005.

He believes that he may have ended up in the office because there were things that CSC team management would hide from him.

- I did not like the entourage who was on the team back then, so was my relationship also distanced says Johnny Weltz."


Considering some of the quotes in the above it appears to me the following scenario isn't unlikely...

Riis kept a doping programme running for the top riders - whether motivation was purely because "they had to" or because he loves it. However, managing risks was key and so even internally on the team there was a public, vocal anti-doping stance. This would keep the practice to the few riders with other people not knowing or suspecting anything. It would also ensure no riders were doing stuff on their own - which no doubt was important following the Hamburger EPO positive. Riis couldn't risk another domestique testing positive - the risk/reward factor didn't make it worth for non-contenders to dope.

Hopefully - at least to some degree - there could also be the factor that a rider like Hamilton would dope regardless and Riis had the choice of letting him do it on his own or mitigate the risks by handling it internally. Weak hope here, but please?

 

[Jaskula]

More from Danish Media

Johnny Weltz (Garmin, ex CSC DS and desk worker) cuts the c**p:

Johnny Weltz was sports director for Team CSC in 2002, when Tyler Hamilton rode for Riis' team. He was not so much involved in the team at the end, which he left in 2005 after being demoted to office employee.

- I guess I ended up in the office, because there were some things I wasn't supposed to be aware of. That's it. But of course, I wondered, what he (Tyler Hamileton, ed.) was up to in Madrid.

- The people who Bjarne was accompanied by back then, was not my cup of tea in any way. I did not like ... what can I say. I did not appreciate the group of people who surrounded the team back then. That's why my relationship [to Riis, ed.] was so distanced."

Bravo.

Danish TV2 - link to original article in Danish

/J

PS Apparently the Danish tabloid BT has a feature on the Riis-Hamilton-Fuentes-Affair in today's print edition, apparently with Tyler's book as main source. The headline goes "That's how Bjarne and I cheated" (link)