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The pedaling technique thread

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May 13, 2011
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Re: Re:

JayKosta said:
... and still waiting for power meter manufactures to "test and document" the pedal technique of top ranked world-class cyclists,
I'm also very excited at the prospect of seeing that sort of data. I forecast that there will be a huge amount of "spin doctoring" done by a certain training device manufacture once real race data becomes widely available........... something like "But, but, but if they pedaled the way I say they should, they'd be even faster".

Hugh
 
Apr 21, 2009
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I have looked at quite a few Pioneer files. These are downloadable to their website where you can see the pedalling information. Will have to look at more than just one riders data but from this rider alone nothing is really leaping off the screen.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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backdoor said:
backdoor said:
PhitBoy said:
Note the sound of crickets chirping... One might be inclined to believe his lack of response would indicate that Noel knows, in heart of hearts, that his claims are unfounded.
If he ever does go in for an evaluation, which seems unlikely, the data will most likely show one of two things:
1. He has typical pedaling and ordinary efficiency or 2) He shows non standard pedaling technique (anyone *can* manipulate their pedaling when power is submaximal) and less than ordinary efficiency.
There is more than one way to produce large force during leg extension,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWosQfk15_Q
and that was how Anquetil was able to apply additional more easily generated max forward torque at TDC and 1 o'c where Poulidor's legs were effectively idling in time trials.
" The highlight of outdoor tug of war is the clash of sheer power between the two teams. Athletes seek an optimal foothold in the ground by digging in their heels and, using that as their pivot, pull the rope with all the strength they're capable of mustering.

Obviously, this technique doesn't work for the indoor events: leaning too far back would cause the athletes to slip, even on the specially designed rubber mats. Hence they try to steadily move back - step by step - to avoid loss of pulling power. Indoor matches require more complex techniques and tactics than those in the outdoor tug of war."


Muscles used in outdoor tug o'war are similar to those used in the mashing technique (Merckx style), but in pedalling their most effective force is restricted to about 60 deg. of the pedalling power stroke. Muscles used in the more complex indoor t o'w technique are similar to those used by Anquetil and their most effective force extends over 120 deg. of the power stroke.
Alex Simmons

Aug 24, 10 23:08

Post #54 of 199 (4654 views)

Re: Improving Pedal Technique [Fleck] [In reply to] Quote | Reply




In Reply To:
The one cycling technique tip that was helpful for me back in the early days, passed along to me, FWIW, by a guy who wore the Yellow Jersy in the Tour de France was that if you think of the pedaling technique like you are scraping mud off the bottom of your shoe at the bottom of the pedal stroke, everything else related to the stroke will fall into place.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that's debatable.

I ride with a prosthetic which means that all I can do on that leg is push down. I can't scrape mud, or pull up, etc. Yet I can produce same sustainable aerobic power as I did pre-amputation.

_________________________________________________________________________________
That reply from Alex Simmons proves that in the most effective known pedalling technique mashers don't use muscles below the knee. Not so in the Anquetil technique where maximal use is made of all these muscles.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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backdoor said:
Alex Simmons

Aug 24, 10 23:08

Post #54 of 199 (4654 views)

Re: Improving Pedal Technique [Fleck] [In reply to] Quote | Reply




In Reply To:
The one cycling technique tip that was helpful for me back in the early days, passed along to me, FWIW, by a guy who wore the Yellow Jersy in the Tour de France was that if you think of the pedaling technique like you are scraping mud off the bottom of your shoe at the bottom of the pedal stroke, everything else related to the stroke will fall into place.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that's debatable.

I ride with a prosthetic which means that all I can do on that leg is push down. I can't scrape mud, or pull up, etc. Yet I can produce same sustainable aerobic power as I did pre-amputation.

_________________________________________________________________________________
That reply from Alex Simmons proves that in the most effective known pedalling technique mashers don't use muscles below the knee. Not so in the Anquetil technique where maximal use is made of all these muscles.
This lower leg muscle action is part of the Anquetil extended main power stroke, not wasted on scraping mud or pulling up,
 
Jun 18, 2015
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backdoor said:
Anquetil extended main power stroke
Anquetil certainly had excellent performance. That might be because he had fairly ordinary physiology but had a magical technique that gave him unprecedented (and undocumented) efficiency. Alternatively, it might have been because he had a large VO2 max, a large percentage of slow twitch fibers for high efficiency, he trained diligently, and he took lots of PEDs (as he so adamantly defended).
This might be a good chance to apply Occam's Razor.
Cheers,
Jim
PS There is no Santa Clause either.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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PhitBoy said:
backdoor said:
Anquetil extended main power stroke
Anquetil certainly had excellent performance. That might be because he had fairly ordinary physiology but had a magical technique that gave him unprecedented (and undocumented) efficiency. Alternatively, it might have been because he had a large VO2 max, a large percentage of slow twitch fibers for high efficiency, he trained diligently, and he took lots of PEDs (as he so adamantly defended).
This might be a good chance to apply Occam's Razor.
Cheers,
Jim
PS There is no Santa Clause either.
Lung capacity of riders, Indurain = 7.8 litres, Armstrong 7 and Anquetil 6.
Poulidor was a better climber than Anquetil. Lower gears greatly reduce the advantage of Anquetil's technique.

Jacques Anquetil is man of whom we have spoken surprisingly little in these archives. Perhaps it is because he is a man who inspires us in death as little as he did his fans in life. A calculating man, he pursued Cycling not for the love and passion of it, but for the business of it; for him, the bicycle provided a path from peasantry to aristocracy. That was all.

Be that as it may, he was a gifted cyclist whose fluidity on the bike exemplified Souplesse:
•A Magnificent Stroke is more than pushing or pulling on the pedals. The stroke flows from the core and hips, driving the pedals round and belying the effort to do so.
•Feet sweep the pedals around in perfect revolutions, one leg cannot be distinguished from the other – they work as one to counter and balance the forces to drive the machine ever faster forward.
•The legs can not do their work without the arms, the lungs, the chest, the heart, the mind. Each unit functions independently to do its work, yet feeds seamlessly into the other. In a phrase: Fluidly Harmonic Articulation.
•Move to the V-Locus; the body is folded such that legs, arms, and chest overlap but do not intersect. Knees tucked in, shoulders hunched, wrists rolled inwards, elbows angled such that the knees only just slip inside them with each revolution of the cranks.
•Face calm, eyes cooly focussed up the road; a grimace is energy that is better spent on turning the pedals.

I give you Master Jacques.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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backdoor said:
PhitBoy said:
backdoor said:
Anquetil extended main power stroke
Anquetil certainly had excellent performance. That might be because he had fairly ordinary physiology but had a magical technique that gave him unprecedented (and undocumented) efficiency. Alternatively, it might have been because he had a large VO2 max, a large percentage of slow twitch fibers for high efficiency, he trained diligently, and he took lots of PEDs (as he so adamantly defended).
This might be a good chance to apply Occam's Razor.
Cheers,
Jim
PS There is no Santa Clause either.


Lung capacity of riders, Indurain = 7.8 litres, Armstrong 7 and Anquetil 6.
Poulidor was a better climber than Anquetil. Lower gears greatly reduce the advantage of Anquetil's technique.

Jacques Anquetil is man of whom we have spoken surprisingly little in these archives. Perhaps it is because he is a man who inspires us in death as little as he did his fans in life. A calculating man, he pursued Cycling not for the love and passion of it, but for the business of it; for him, the bicycle provided a path from peasantry to aristocracy. That was all.

Be that as it may, he was a gifted cyclist whose fluidity on the bike exemplified Souplesse:
•A Magnificent Stroke is more than pushing or pulling on the pedals. The stroke flows from the core and hips, driving the pedals round and belying the effort to do so.
•Feet sweep the pedals around in perfect revolutions, one leg cannot be distinguished from the other – they work as one to counter and balance the forces to drive the machine ever faster forward.
•The legs can not do their work without the arms, the lungs, the chest, the heart, the mind. Each unit functions independently to do its work, yet feeds seamlessly into the other. In a phrase: Fluidly Harmonic Articulation.
•Move to the V-Locus; the body is folded such that legs, arms, and chest overlap but do not intersect. Knees tucked in, shoulders hunched, wrists rolled inwards, elbows angled such that the knees only just slip inside them with each revolution of the cranks.
•Face calm, eyes cooly focussed up the road; a grimace is energy that is better spent on turning the pedals.

I give you Master Jacques.
No, you give us off topic and a poorly formed opinion.

If I was so sure of something I would leap at the offer to have it validated in a sport science lab.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
PhitBoy said:
backdoor said:
Anquetil extended main power stroke
Anquetil certainly had excellent performance. That might be because he had fairly ordinary physiology but had a magical technique that gave him unprecedented (and undocumented) efficiency. Alternatively, it might have been because he had a large VO2 max, a large percentage of slow twitch fibers for high efficiency, he trained diligently, and he took lots of PEDs (as he so adamantly defended).
This might be a good chance to apply Occam's Razor.
Cheers,
Jim
PS There is no Santa Clause either.


Lung capacity of riders, Indurain = 7.8 litres, Armstrong 7 and Anquetil 6.
Poulidor was a better climber than Anquetil. Lower gears greatly reduce the advantage of Anquetil's technique.

Jacques Anquetil is man of whom we have spoken surprisingly little in these archives. Perhaps it is because he is a man who inspires us in death as little as he did his fans in life. A calculating man, he pursued Cycling not for the love and passion of it, but for the business of it; for him, the bicycle provided a path from peasantry to aristocracy. That was all.

Be that as it may, he was a gifted cyclist whose fluidity on the bike exemplified Souplesse:
•A Magnificent Stroke is more than pushing or pulling on the pedals. The stroke flows from the core and hips, driving the pedals round and belying the effort to do so.
•Feet sweep the pedals around in perfect revolutions, one leg cannot be distinguished from the other – they work as one to counter and balance the forces to drive the machine ever faster forward.
•The legs can not do their work without the arms, the lungs, the chest, the heart, the mind. Each unit functions independently to do its work, yet feeds seamlessly into the other. In a phrase: Fluidly Harmonic Articulation.
•Move to the V-Locus; the body is folded such that legs, arms, and chest overlap but do not intersect. Knees tucked in, shoulders hunched, wrists rolled inwards, elbows angled such that the knees only just slip inside them with each revolution of the cranks.
•Face calm, eyes cooly focussed up the road; a grimace is energy that is better spent on turning the pedals.

I give you Master Jacques.
No, you give us off topic and a poorly formed opinion.

If I was so sure of something I would leap at the offer to have it validated in a sport science lab.
Actually it's not my description,
http://www.velominati.com/tradition/look-pro-souplesse/
 
Nov 25, 2010
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backdoor said:
...
Lung capacity of riders, Indurain = 7.8 litres, Armstrong 7 and Anquetil 6.
---------------------------------
'Lung capacity' is different from 'VO2Max'.
Lung capacity is just a measure of the 'size of the container' (the lungs).
VO2max is a measure of how much O2 can be transfered from the lungs into the blood stream in some time period - usually 1 minute. The important consideration about VO2max is that it indicates how much O2 can be actually used in the production of aerobic muscle contractions.

Perhaps Anquetil had to breathe more rapidly than others, but I'd wager he had a high VO2max level.

Also, the flowery description of Anquetil's style seems to be very similar to 'pedaling in circles'. And it seems to imply a large amount of mental concentration on the movement of BOTH legs through the entire crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Jun 18, 2015
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backdoor said:
Jacques Anquetil is man of whom we have spoken surprisingly little in these archives.
Its such a tragedy that we don't have modern biomechanical and metabolic measures on this great rider. If only we could find someone else who has learned his fantastic(al) pedaling technique we could study the pure genius. Oh wait, Noel is a practitioner of the Art! But he won't show us the data. Noel, don't you feel you owe it to Jacques to show the world this masterful technique?
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Jun 4, 2015
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JayKosta said:
Also, the flowery description of Anquetil's style seems to be very similar to 'pedaling in circles'. And it seems to imply a large amount of mental concentration on the movement of BOTH legs through the entire crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
It is a semi circular technique which can follow on from the circular style, the difference being that each leg has only to concentrate on 180 deg. of the circle, across the top and down and of course unlike the circular style, maximal force is applied across the top. This means total concentration can be given to power application by one of the legs throughout the rotation of the chain ring. Additional concentration is required for the simultaneous switch over of max force application when cranks are in the 11-5 o'c position. It is possible for any rider to perfect and use all three techniques (circular/semi circular/mashing) during a race.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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backdoor said:
CoachFergie said:
backdoor said:
PhitBoy said:
backdoor said:
Anquetil extended main power stroke
Anquetil certainly had excellent performance. That might be because he had fairly ordinary physiology but had a magical technique that gave him unprecedented (and undocumented) efficiency. Alternatively, it might have been because he had a large VO2 max, a large percentage of slow twitch fibers for high efficiency, he trained diligently, and he took lots of PEDs (as he so adamantly defended).
This might be a good chance to apply Occam's Razor.
Cheers,
Jim
PS There is no Santa Clause either.


Lung capacity of riders, Indurain = 7.8 litres, Armstrong 7 and Anquetil 6.
Poulidor was a better climber than Anquetil. Lower gears greatly reduce the advantage of Anquetil's technique.

Jacques Anquetil is man of whom we have spoken surprisingly little in these archives. Perhaps it is because he is a man who inspires us in death as little as he did his fans in life. A calculating man, he pursued Cycling not for the love and passion of it, but for the business of it; for him, the bicycle provided a path from peasantry to aristocracy. That was all.

Be that as it may, he was a gifted cyclist whose fluidity on the bike exemplified Souplesse:
•A Magnificent Stroke is more than pushing or pulling on the pedals. The stroke flows from the core and hips, driving the pedals round and belying the effort to do so.
•Feet sweep the pedals around in perfect revolutions, one leg cannot be distinguished from the other – they work as one to counter and balance the forces to drive the machine ever faster forward.
•The legs can not do their work without the arms, the lungs, the chest, the heart, the mind. Each unit functions independently to do its work, yet feeds seamlessly into the other. In a phrase: Fluidly Harmonic Articulation.
•Move to the V-Locus; the body is folded such that legs, arms, and chest overlap but do not intersect. Knees tucked in, shoulders hunched, wrists rolled inwards, elbows angled such that the knees only just slip inside them with each revolution of the cranks.
•Face calm, eyes cooly focussed up the road; a grimace is energy that is better spent on turning the pedals.

I give you Master Jacques.
No, you give us off topic and a poorly formed opinion.

If I was so sure of something I would leap at the offer to have it validated in a sport science lab.
Actually it's not my description,
http://www.velominati.com/tradition/look-pro-souplesse/
So not even an original opinion. Figures.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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backdoor said:
JayKosta said:
Also, the flowery description of Anquetil's style seems to be very similar to 'pedaling in circles'. And it seems to imply a large amount of mental concentration on the movement of BOTH legs through the entire crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
It is a semi circular technique which can follow on from the circular style, the difference being that each leg has only to concentrate on 180 deg. of the circle, across the top and down and of course unlike the circular style, maximal force is applied across the top. This means total concentration can be given to power application by one of the legs throughout the rotation of the chain ring. Additional concentration is required for the simultaneous switch over of max force application when cranks are in the 11-5 o'c position. It is possible for any rider to perfect and use all three techniques (circular/semi circular/mashing) during a race.
It's in print on the Internet. Sounds legit :rolleyes:
 
Jun 4, 2015
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CoachFergie said:
It's in print on the Internet. Sounds legit :rolleyes:

From BikePro,


What is pedaling technique?

" What we are talking about here is adapting your technique to a certain situation. There is not one singular style or technique that is best for all aspects of a ride. In some ways, it is much like the advanced electronic systems controlling car engines today in that the gear selection, valve timing, ignition timing and fuel pluses, or your technique on a bike, is controlled such that it best suits the situation. Constant real time changes are required, and of course there is a guide as to which 'technique' is best for different situations.

Can pedaling technique be learnt?

Yes. Just like walking, cycling, swimming or playing an music instrument It can be learnt by any person.

Do I need to consciously perform the technique?

The process of obtaining a new skill incorporates several levels of learning and awareness.

Level 1 - Unconsciously Incompetent (most recreational riders & some bike fitters belong to this category) At this level, the person is unaware of his/her lack of knowledge or skill in a given subject or task. A person who is unconsciously incompetent is either not aware of the existence/relevance of the skill or they do not realize they are deficient in that skill.

Level 2 - Consciously Incompetent

At this level, the person recognizes there are skills he/she needs to learn, but has not yet addressed the skill deficit.


Level 3 - Consciously Competent

When consciously competent, people can reliably perform a skill without assistance, but it requires a certain amount of concentration and focus on their part. As they use their newly acquired skill, it will become increasingly automatic.


Level 4 - Unconsciously Competent

At this level people can perform a specific task without conscious effort. The person has had so much practice that the skill has become automatic or second nature. Some common examples of tasks that often become automatic with practice are driving, knitting, typing, riding a bike, repetitive assembly tasks, etc.

For example, Pilates as an exercise involves conscious control of the movement of each body part, and the proprioceptive feedback to execute a few precise, controlled repetitions. Unlike Pilates, cycling is high repetition dynamic sport. Proprioceptive feedback mechanism may work under 60rpm in a stationary trainer, It won't work on the road ! The brain cannot process so much information

When a rider reaches level 4 (unconsciously competent) in regards to their pedaling technique, they do not rely on proprioceptive feedback. Their central pattern generator can produce meaningful functional output in the absence of sensory inputs (i.e. pedaling has become so much of a pattern that the brain does not have to think/to tell what the leg has to do). It is quite difficult, once a rider has reached level 4, to pedal with the wrong technique at any load, unless they consciously force themselves to! High performance pedaling technique is not something that comes naturally to everyone. I stress again that pedaling is not necessarily a natural motion, unlike breathing! It is a skill that needs to be learnt and mastered.

We are more than competent to help you to archive this.

Level 5 - Unconsciously perfectly Competent

Though reaching this level may be the ultimate goal, achieving this will take many years of dedication & hard work. This level, is basically the level World Champions are at.

People avoid complacency and stay abreast of new developments and competency standards. If the "world" changes, unconsciously competent people can quickly become unconsciously incompetent!

How long does it take to learn?

It takes a few hours to a few days to become "Consciously Competent";

A few weeks to a few months to become "Unconsciously Competent";

and Many years of hard work to become "Unconsciously Perfectly Competent" "
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Re: Re:

Cycling is like Church, many participate, few understand.

As a sport scientist very disappointing to see tripe like this get published and gain attention when there is much better research out there tackling the real questions in improving performance!

Hamish

JamesCun said:
backdoor said:
Well that sounds like an interesting study of you want to pedal with no resistance. Not sure why they would care about 50watt efforts?

How does it relate to this thread?
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Am I what?

Looking for evidence to support my practice as a coach and using scientific process to estimate the effects of various interventions on cycling performance?

Yes I am!
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Re:

CoachFergie said:
Am I what?

Looking for evidence to support my practice as a coach and using scientific process to estimate the effects of various interventions on cycling performance?

Yes I am!
Are you a cycling sport science expert or a jack of all sports and master of none.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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One could not claim to be an expert in sport science without a single published paper to his name. One paper in the process and two more on their way. I do focus on the science of cycling performance. No real interest in other sports. I hear there is some big Rugby game on tomorrow that I don't really give a fat rats backside about.
 
Jun 4, 2015
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Re:

CoachFergie said:
I do focus on the science of cycling performance.
You focus on the science of training to improve performance in cycling but completely ignore the important biomechanics of the sport. Yes there is a game but Scotland were robbed of a place in this final.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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Completely ignore? How wrong you are.

I spend a considerable amount of time devoted to the understanding of the biomechanical aspects of cycling.

Based on this I laugh at your pathetic claims on pedalling technique. You have been offered the means to estimate the effects of these claims but cower away from them every time. If you truly had the confidence in these claims you would have leapt at the opportunity to have them validated.

While you hide behind your keyboard I will be down the track this afternoon, measuring power, recording times and using video analysis to discover real opportunities to improve performance, biomechanical, physiological and psychological!

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/12080019_623820551053772_7393341453975832426_o.jpg
 
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