- Nov 7, 2009
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- Jun 22, 2009
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Krebs cycle said:
my gut says he's clean-ish when compared to his peers but i have blind faith in no one.
the most interesting thing about this article is that it is fairly objective and appears on the velo news site. it feels like a significant shift for them.
- Oct 16, 2009
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Big Doopie
BANNED
- Oct 6, 2009
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in the spring of 1989 charly mottet was the #1 ranked cyclist in the world.
charly mottet is considered by all accounts to have been completely clean.
it was therefore possible in 1989 to be the arguably the best cyclist in the world and be clean.
it is therefore not a leap of faith to think that lemond -- who also enjoys a similarly clean record and puts himself willingly in the line of fire by being outspokenly anti-doping -- could have raced and won clean at that time.
charly mottet is considered by all accounts to have been completely clean.
it was therefore possible in 1989 to be the arguably the best cyclist in the world and be clean.
it is therefore not a leap of faith to think that lemond -- who also enjoys a similarly clean record and puts himself willingly in the line of fire by being outspokenly anti-doping -- could have raced and won clean at that time.
- Feb 21, 2010
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Lance alluding to a Lemond "truthtelling"? Who does he think will be on trial here?
If Lance is being questioned regarding his fraud, how is it material whether Lemond huffed paint and mainlined high-test before the final TT of the 89 tour?
Lance. You will need to answer the material questions, not deflect back some other vague, innuendo on those who will testify against you. This will not work in US court.
Lance. You were just accused of offering massive grips of cash to someone so they'd accuse Lemond of doping. It really does not look good to then go out and drop hints about Lemond doping. Not such a good spin on that.
Lance is unglued. Crashing on his ****, talking nonsense, getting dropped by pressure from Sastre...
I think we are seeing, beyond just the downside of his age, the true ceiling of an un-doped Lance. Way too much heat to be injecting EPO IV-ly every day and taking on packed rbc's every 5th day. Add some stress for comic relief and this is what you get, a very average professional bike racer.
I though he was supposed to be like the comic Hulk when he gets angry... I though anger motivated him. Perhaps, the anger is now fear?
If Lance is being questioned regarding his fraud, how is it material whether Lemond huffed paint and mainlined high-test before the final TT of the 89 tour?
Lance. You will need to answer the material questions, not deflect back some other vague, innuendo on those who will testify against you. This will not work in US court.
Lance. You were just accused of offering massive grips of cash to someone so they'd accuse Lemond of doping. It really does not look good to then go out and drop hints about Lemond doping. Not such a good spin on that.
Lance is unglued. Crashing on his ****, talking nonsense, getting dropped by pressure from Sastre...
I think we are seeing, beyond just the downside of his age, the true ceiling of an un-doped Lance. Way too much heat to be injecting EPO IV-ly every day and taking on packed rbc's every 5th day. Add some stress for comic relief and this is what you get, a very average professional bike racer.
I though he was supposed to be like the comic Hulk when he gets angry... I though anger motivated him. Perhaps, the anger is now fear?
- May 26, 2010
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saganftw said:i believe LA was doping,i even believe Lemond is luke skywalker of this story but lawyers working for free?
Sorry I think LeMond's quote was they are doing it for next to nothing!, which in Lawyer's parlance is criminal
my bad.
boy the Uniballer trolls are coming out of the woodwork. I suppose the cancer fund is not so busy anymore
buckwheat
BANNED
- Sep 24, 2009
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blutto said:
And maybe there's not much. LeMond clearly wasn't the same rider after the '87 shooting, much worse wiseguy.
Then how come Lance was only using Cortisone. Steroids and Amphetamines in '89 and didn't start with EPO until '95? We know the guy uses all of the latest technologies.
- Feb 10, 2010
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Ding!
Though, it's not trolling. It's a particularly effective form of influencing opinion.
Public Strategies couldn't effect opinion with versions of the "never been tested positive" spin. Ashenden's views and the UCI "donations" blew that one up. Badly.
The next Public Strategies message was "I'm not a fan but, <fill in mildly positive, but positively absurd statement>" Which blew up because Team Pharmstrong is *only* self-serving.
So, they recallibrate (again) and come up with a "best of the worst dopers" message. Which will blow up because it's apples-and-oranges kind of comparison.
There will be more efforts to find a message that has truthiness. Major parts of the argument can/will be agreed to by less dedicated cyclists. However dedicated Pro Cycling fans will be the only ones capable of debunking the truthiness. At that point, it's Mission Accomplished! for team Pharmstrong. We aren't there yet, but they'll keep trying until they find a message that has some parts with which it is hard to disagree.
Benotti69 said:
Though, it's not trolling. It's a particularly effective form of influencing opinion.
Public Strategies couldn't effect opinion with versions of the "never been tested positive" spin. Ashenden's views and the UCI "donations" blew that one up. Badly.
The next Public Strategies message was "I'm not a fan but, <fill in mildly positive, but positively absurd statement>" Which blew up because Team Pharmstrong is *only* self-serving.
So, they recallibrate (again) and come up with a "best of the worst dopers" message. Which will blow up because it's apples-and-oranges kind of comparison.
There will be more efforts to find a message that has truthiness. Major parts of the argument can/will be agreed to by less dedicated cyclists. However dedicated Pro Cycling fans will be the only ones capable of debunking the truthiness. At that point, it's Mission Accomplished! for team Pharmstrong. We aren't there yet, but they'll keep trying until they find a message that has some parts with which it is hard to disagree.
- Jul 6, 2010
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- May 26, 2010
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when Lemond first heard about Armstrong's alleged EPO use back in 2001, his first reaction was, well if it's not true, "It's the greatest comeback in the history of the sport" and if it is, "It's the greatest fraud ever in the sport".
If you ever heard an interview with Lemond he is very articulate and not a bitter jealous former TdF winner. When you take a few sounds bites out of that it is quite easy to make him sound a bitter and jealous former TdF winner. The problem with a lot of today's media is that all we get are small sound bites which affect our judgement on what is not the real feelings of a person, but quotes used to make an impression that is not necessarily accurate.
How long are CN articles. Not long. How many quotes are their from someone in the article 2 maybe 3. they may have talked for 30 minutes.
Armstrong is determined to push this past the point of no return for himself. He does not realise it but he cannot come out of this with any dignity unless he quickly holds his hands up and says sorry. But we all the know that Liestrong does not do that and this will be his biggest downfall because not only has he doped but he has lied to millions of cancer sufferers, their friends and families and that will not be forgotten or forgiven.
If you ever heard an interview with Lemond he is very articulate and not a bitter jealous former TdF winner. When you take a few sounds bites out of that it is quite easy to make him sound a bitter and jealous former TdF winner. The problem with a lot of today's media is that all we get are small sound bites which affect our judgement on what is not the real feelings of a person, but quotes used to make an impression that is not necessarily accurate.
How long are CN articles. Not long. How many quotes are their from someone in the article 2 maybe 3. they may have talked for 30 minutes.
Armstrong is determined to push this past the point of no return for himself. He does not realise it but he cannot come out of this with any dignity unless he quickly holds his hands up and says sorry. But we all the know that Liestrong does not do that and this will be his biggest downfall because not only has he doped but he has lied to millions of cancer sufferers, their friends and families and that will not be forgotten or forgiven.
- Mar 18, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
Having at least briefly discussed various issues (including doping) with Lemond in person, I would agree with you that he is very articulate. He is also clearly quite intelligent, and has an impressive memory. What I did not come away with was any real understanding of his true motivations (e.g., is he bitter over matters? does he speak out due to a sense of righteous indignation? is he simply one of those people who do not bother to censor their thoughts when speaking aloud because they don't care what you think of them? is he some combination of all three?).
Regardless, I would completely agree with you that it is incorrect to form any opinions of him based on how he is quoted in the press.
- Mar 18, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
Lemond said that when Armstrong's relationship with Dr. Ferrari was revealed. It was not about any specific use of doping products.
Benotti69 said:
Lemond is not usually what one would term articulate. He is an embarrassingly bad public speaker.
- Mar 17, 2009
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One can be articulate but a poor public speaker. The two are not the same thing.BroDeal said:
A one on one interview is a very different prospect to speaking in front of 50, 100 or 1000 people.
I`d descibe LeMond as an inteligant but not a a great public orator.
The two are not mutaly inclusive. Try listeng to Naim Chomsky if think they are.
When Greg came to Europe he was like a star struck teanager and his tallant was recognised by Hinault and for a while they had what apeared quite a paternal friendship. Events may have soured that since but I realy dont know how they are as mature men with each other. Friends or Foes?
After his shooting incident I got the impression expectaition that he might return to the top fell quite quickly and suport might not have been what it might but to be honest thats kinda understandable but it did seem to sour things a bit for Greg if reports at the time were truthfull. A hard time from both angles Id say.
I dont think I`ve ever seen bitterness or envy in anything he`s quoted to have said or when Ive seen interview but I do think hes been angry , frusrated and furious.
Given his version of events who wouldnt be?
The two are not mutaly inclusive. Try listeng to Naim Chomsky if think they are.
When Greg came to Europe he was like a star struck teanager and his tallant was recognised by Hinault and for a while they had what apeared quite a paternal friendship. Events may have soured that since but I realy dont know how they are as mature men with each other. Friends or Foes?
After his shooting incident I got the impression expectaition that he might return to the top fell quite quickly and suport might not have been what it might but to be honest thats kinda understandable but it did seem to sour things a bit for Greg if reports at the time were truthfull. A hard time from both angles Id say.
I dont think I`ve ever seen bitterness or envy in anything he`s quoted to have said or when Ive seen interview but I do think hes been angry , frusrated and furious.
Given his version of events who wouldnt be?
Lemond is crackers.
He could have used his personal equity intelligently and been a hero to all.
He could have used his personal equity intelligently and been a hero to all.
The irony from Armstrong.
"No way did I pay someone $300,000 to say LeMond took EPO. By the way ask LeMond about 89 and if he took EPO"
"No way did I pay someone $300,000 to say LeMond took EPO. By the way ask LeMond about 89 and if he took EPO"
- Mar 19, 2009
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Perhaps the most illuminating comments Greg has made about his own experience with doping were published in an interview with L'Express in 2007:
L'Express:You did not dope?
Lemond: No. And I did not always understand what they were saying to me. I am American, not French or Belgian. The subtleties of jargon long escaped me. When they asked me if I "nursed" enough, I retorted that I was not sick. When asked whether I was "prepared", I answered with my training notebook. It's probably in 1988, the year after my hunting accident, I had my closest brush with doping. I signed in the Dutch team PDM and they decided to try "things" among riders. Their doctor said that I should "rebalance" physiologically because the previous year I had lost much blood. Luckily, that season, I almost did not run. However, Gert-Jan Theunisse, a team leader, was excluded from the Tour after testing positive for testosterone.
Here is the original French:
Vous ne vous êtes jamais dopé?
Non. Et je ne comprenais pas toujours de quoi l'on me parlait. Je suis américain, pas français ni belge. Les subtilités du jargon m'ont longtemps échappé. Quand on me demandait si je me «soignais» suffisamment, je rétorquais que je n'étais pas malade. A la question de savoir si j'étais bien «préparé», je répondais par mes carnets d'entraînement. C'est sans doute en 1988, l'année suivant mon accident de chasse, que j'ai frôlé le dopage de plus près. J'avais signé dans l'équipe néerlandaise PDM et ils avaient décidé d'essayer des «choses» auprès des coureurs. Leur médecin affirmait qu'il fallait me «rééquilibrer» physiologiquement car, l'année précédente, j'avais perdu beaucoup de sang. Par chance, cette saison-là, je n'ai presque pas couru. En revanche, Gert-Jan Theunisse, un des leaders de PDM, a été exclu du Tour après avoir été contrôlé positif à la testostérone.
http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/sport/les-coureurs-dopes-sont-comme-des-toxicomanes_476155.html?p=2
L'Express:You did not dope?
Lemond: No. And I did not always understand what they were saying to me. I am American, not French or Belgian. The subtleties of jargon long escaped me. When they asked me if I "nursed" enough, I retorted that I was not sick. When asked whether I was "prepared", I answered with my training notebook. It's probably in 1988, the year after my hunting accident, I had my closest brush with doping. I signed in the Dutch team PDM and they decided to try "things" among riders. Their doctor said that I should "rebalance" physiologically because the previous year I had lost much blood. Luckily, that season, I almost did not run. However, Gert-Jan Theunisse, a team leader, was excluded from the Tour after testing positive for testosterone.
Here is the original French:
Vous ne vous êtes jamais dopé?
Non. Et je ne comprenais pas toujours de quoi l'on me parlait. Je suis américain, pas français ni belge. Les subtilités du jargon m'ont longtemps échappé. Quand on me demandait si je me «soignais» suffisamment, je rétorquais que je n'étais pas malade. A la question de savoir si j'étais bien «préparé», je répondais par mes carnets d'entraînement. C'est sans doute en 1988, l'année suivant mon accident de chasse, que j'ai frôlé le dopage de plus près. J'avais signé dans l'équipe néerlandaise PDM et ils avaient décidé d'essayer des «choses» auprès des coureurs. Leur médecin affirmait qu'il fallait me «rééquilibrer» physiologiquement car, l'année précédente, j'avais perdu beaucoup de sang. Par chance, cette saison-là, je n'ai presque pas couru. En revanche, Gert-Jan Theunisse, un des leaders de PDM, a été exclu du Tour après avoir été contrôlé positif à la testostérone.
http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/sport/les-coureurs-dopes-sont-comme-des-toxicomanes_476155.html?p=2
Interesting.Epicycle said:
He doesn't go into him refusing "help" from the doc, does he? and why did he luckily not race much that season? For chance of getting caught, as he was knowingly on the same as Theunisse, while not actually knowing "what"?
I can't help but believe the guy. Just not sure what to believe here. Does he think he was liekly doped one season where he barely raced being on recovery? Or does he mean "I never teted positive"?
I can believe he didn't understand the jargon earlier, English NOT being a peloton language. Was going to pose a question about, how current dopers call it among themselves. A harmless word spoken with emphasis?
And with test results like Lemond, training smartly, most pro's will need serious dope to merely hang on your wheel. Sport is not fair, neither for the guy winning it clean, not the guy who'll never win something big without doping. Same effort, same talent, different result.
Cloxxki said:
I think Lemond is okay although I tended to root for Fignon, however I'm surprised that he says he didn't know what they were talking about. I spoke to a British pro in the 1970s who rode for a famous continental team and got a few good results, he said the team was pretty blunt about doping, it was `here's the tablets get on with it'. Maybe it was different on the teams Lemond ride for?
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