Doping In Athletics

[jens_attacks]

Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0WfsAwvTSU

Do you think this will ever be beaten? I know we're all cynics here in the clinic, but the doping athletes can get away with nowadays isn't nearly as effective as back in the '90s.

You could have taken pole vault or high jump for that matter
Silly analogy
It has less to do with doping than with actual real, raw talent, technique...

And no, in athletics doping is at least as effective as back in the 90s...this is not cycling.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0WfsAwvTSU

Do you think this will ever be beaten? I know we're all cynics here in the clinic, but the doping athletes can get away with nowadays isn't nearly as effective as back in the '90s.

You could have taken pole vault or high jump for that matter
Silly analogy
It has less to do with doping than with actual real, raw talent, technique...

And no, in athletics doping is at least as effective as back in the 90s...this is not cycling.

Pole Vault and high jump rely more on technique than long jump. I've done all 3 events, I grew up with athletics. Not to mention the improved equipment with Pole Vault.

Yeah, sure, not a single long jumper nowadays has the talent of the guys in the nineties when the sport was smaller. :lol:

Anyway, the high jump world record is 23 years old as well.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0WfsAwvTSU

Do you think this will ever be beaten? I know we're all cynics here in the clinic, but the doping athletes can get away with nowadays isn't nearly as effective as back in the '90s.

Yeah, doping is more sophisticated now, but the Long Jump hasn't had the depth of quality that it used to have. The easiest data point is to compare Carl Lewis (admitted doper) to only sprinter/jumper currently, Jarrion Lawson. Carl ran 9.86 and 19.74 in the 100m and 200m. Lawson has run 10.07 and 20.17. His PR in the LJ is 8.58 (8.25m in the Olympic Final for 4th, 8.38 won gold.)

Speed matters.

People like to ask what Bolt could do in the 400m, or Long Jump (or the Mile...). He wouldn't match his 100m/200m level in the 400m, but he could destroy records in the Long Jump.

Well, yeah, Bolt is the only guy I could see getting close. But if he thought he could do it than why didn't he?

 

[jens_attacks]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0WfsAwvTSU

Do you think this will ever be beaten? I know we're all cynics here in the clinic, but the doping athletes can get away with nowadays isn't nearly as effective as back in the '90s.

You could have taken pole vault or high jump for that matter
Silly analogy
It has less to do with doping than with actual real, raw talent, technique...

And no, in athletics doping is at least as effective as back in the 90s...this is not cycling.

Pole Vault and high jump rely more on technique than long jump. I've done all 3 events, I grew up with athletics. Not to mention the improved equipment with Pole Vault.

Yeah, sure, not a single long jumper nowadays has the talent of the guys in the nineties when the sport was smaller. :lol:

Anyway, the high jump world record is 23 years old as well.

Did you watch athletics at rio? If you say that they don't have access to doping as in the 90s, it sounds stupid. That is all.

 

[spalco]

Right now it looks like Galen Rupp is on his way to a medal in the marathon, absolutely sensational if he makes it, but of course also tremendosly suspicious.

 

[Brullnux]

Salazar looking good right now.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Salazar looking good right now.

Rupp was always a top runner, from age group to age group, he was always amongst the best, but for him to be making incredible transformations, from not making finals at majors, to winning medals at the Olympics, beating the now highly suspicious Kenyans, and extending his range to marathons? And all of this after running a 10000m in the past week?

Salazar needs to be fully investigated. The news last summer of foul play got nowhere. I am willing to bet there were a few hush hush-sweep under the rug-keep your mouth shut-avoid the question sort of moments after news broke.

 

[BullsFan22]

And what about Matt Centrowitz? I know that 1500m was slow as heck and tactical as it can be, but....

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0WfsAwvTSU

Do you think this will ever be beaten? I know we're all cynics here in the clinic, but the doping athletes can get away with nowadays isn't nearly as effective as back in the '90s.

You could have taken pole vault or high jump for that matter
Silly analogy
It has less to do with doping than with actual real, raw talent, technique...

And no, in athletics doping is at least as effective as back in the 90s...this is not cycling.

Pole Vault and high jump rely more on technique than long jump. I've done all 3 events, I grew up with athletics. Not to mention the improved equipment with Pole Vault.

Yeah, sure, not a single long jumper nowadays has the talent of the guys in the nineties when the sport was smaller. :lol:

Anyway, the high jump world record is 23 years old as well.

Did you watch athletics at rio? If you say that they don't have access to doping as in the 90s, it sounds stupid. That is all.

The sprint numbers were rather slow at Rio. Long Jump and sprinting go hand in hand together.

The only explanation I can think of is that the specialization is actually hurting Long Jump instead of improving it. Speed and explosivity is important in the Long Jump, but the top sprinters only focus on sprinting these days. Still doesn't explain the fact why Usain Bolt has never tried the long jump if he could break the world record. He can't be called the greatest athlete without that Long Jump title. Carl Lewis won Olympic Gold on the 100 m, 200 m, 4 x 100 m relay and the long jump.

 

[jens_attacks]

yeah i always thought that he will give it a shot. too bad.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0WfsAwvTSU

Do you think this will ever be beaten? I know we're all cynics here in the clinic, but the doping athletes can get away with nowadays isn't nearly as effective as back in the '90s.

You could have taken pole vault or high jump for that matter
Silly analogy
It has less to do with doping than with actual real, raw talent, technique...

And no, in athletics doping is at least as effective as back in the 90s...this is not cycling.

Pole Vault and high jump rely more on technique than long jump. I've done all 3 events, I grew up with athletics. Not to mention the improved equipment with Pole Vault.

Yeah, sure, not a single long jumper nowadays has the talent of the guys in the nineties when the sport was smaller. :lol:

Anyway, the high jump world record is 23 years old as well.

Did you watch athletics at rio? If you say that they don't have access to doping as in the 90s, it sounds stupid. That is all.

The sprint numbers were rather slow at Rio. Long Jump and sprinting go hand in hand together.

The only explanation I can think of is that the specialization is actually hurting Long Jump instead of improving it. Speed and explosivity is important in the Long Jump, but the top sprinters only focus on sprinting these days. Still doesn't explain the fact why Usain Bolt has never tried the long jump if he could break the world record. He can't be called the greatest athlete without that Long Jump title. Carl Lewis won Olympic Gold on the 100 m, 200 m, 4 x 100 m relay and the long jump.

He doesn't need to do the long jump. He could do the triple jump, or high jump, or the 100m hurdles/400m hurdles, or the 400/800m.

I don't think it's fair to compare athletics and swimming and specifically Bolt to Phelps. If you want to REALLY try to compare them, Bolt would need to do the 400 and 4x400m relay and one or both of the hurdles events. In swimming, as everyone knows, you have different strokes. In track and field running, you don't. Yes, you are required to have different sort of speed, acceleration, strategy in the various running events, but the basics are the same. You have to adjust in swimming.

You also have to figure in the scheduling. Some events are scheduled too close to each other for reasonable rest and recovery.

I suppose when you look at Lewis and Owens, they did the 100, 200, 4x100 and long jump and swept those in their time. So yeah, if we base it on that, Bolt isn't a 'complete' track and field athlete. Then again, what about decathletes? Sure, it's many events, but you only get one medal, but that wouldn't be a terrible comparison either.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

He doesn't need to do the long jump. He could do the triple jump, or high jump, or the 100m hurdles/400m hurdles, or the 400/800m.

I don't think it's fair to compare athletics and swimming and specifically Bolt to Phelps. If you want to REALLY try to compare them, Bolt would need to do the 400 and 4x400m relay and one or both of the hurdles events. In swimming, as everyone knows, you have different strokes. In track and field running, you don't. Yes, you are required to have different sort of speed, acceleration, strategy in the various running events, but the basics are the same. You have to adjust in swimming.

You also have to figure in the scheduling. Some events are scheduled too close to each other for reasonable rest and recovery.

I suppose when you look at Lewis and Owens, they did the 100, 200, 4x100 and long jump and swept those in their time. So yeah, if we base it on that, Bolt isn't a 'complete' track and field athlete. Then again, what about decathletes? Sure, it's many events, but you only get one medal, but that wouldn't be a terrible comparison either.

I consider Decathletes to be the greatest track & field athletes. I don't rate them by the quantity of their medals, but by how long they were unbeaten.

Currently, Ashton Eaton has been unbeatable since 2012 on the big championships (2 Olympic titles and 5 World titles). If he could win a third gold medal in the Olympics then I'd consider him as great as Bolt tbh.

 

[djpbaltimore]

And what about Matt Centrowitz? I know that 1500m was slow as heck and tactical as it can be, but....

Slow is an understatement. The gold medal says very little as the first 3 laps were high school pace. He won with great positioning and a blistering 400m final lap. He was a silver medalist in 2013 WC, 3rd in 2011 WC, and 4th in London 2012. A medal was not unexpected based on his past performances in big meets.

 

[El Pistolero]

Didn't the women do 4 minutes and 8 seconds in the 1500 meters? I can do that lol.

 

[JetSet]

Re:

Right now it looks like Galen Rupp is on his way to a medal in the marathon, absolutely sensational if he makes it, but of course also tremendosly suspicious.

2:10:05, nothing out of the ordinary. ranks him at 2,391 in the all time list. Charlie Spedding ran faster than that for 3rd place in L.A 1984 in much worse conditions.

Pete

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0WfsAwvTSU

Do you think this will ever be beaten? I know we're all cynics here in the clinic, but the doping athletes can get away with nowadays isn't nearly as effective as back in the '90s.

You could have taken pole vault or high jump for that matter
Silly analogy
It has less to do with doping than with actual real, raw talent, technique...

And no, in athletics doping is at least as effective as back in the 90s...this is not cycling.

Pole Vault and high jump rely more on technique than long jump. I've done all 3 events, I grew up with athletics. Not to mention the improved equipment with Pole Vault.

Yeah, sure, not a single long jumper nowadays has the talent of the guys in the nineties when the sport was smaller. :lol:

Anyway, the high jump world record is 23 years old as well.

The argument could be made that many of the guys who would have the talent to break the long jump record, now have a good financial alternative with the NFL offering even backups 5 figure salaries

 

[buckle]

And what about Matt Centrowitz? I know that 1500m was slow as heck and tactical as it can be, but....

I knew little about him but was encouraged by the slow winning time, age, form and pedigree. Then I read NIKE, Oregon and Salazar and felt ridiculous if not embarrassed by the hope he briefly inspired.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

Right now it looks like Galen Rupp is on his way to a medal in the marathon, absolutely sensational if he makes it, but of course also tremendosly suspicious.

2:10:05, nothing out of the ordinary. ranks him at 2,391 in the all time list. Charlie Spedding ran faster than that for 3rd place in L.A 1984 in much worse conditions.

Pete

Hmmm.

Something I have never been able to reconcile with the Marathon is that if they have access to EPO, blood bags and other things we know to work very well in cycling, then why haven't they blown the doors off of 2h?

Dave.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Right now it looks like Galen Rupp is on his way to a medal in the marathon, absolutely sensational if he makes it, but of course also tremendosly suspicious.

2:10:05, nothing out of the ordinary. ranks him at 2,391 in the all time list. Charlie Spedding ran faster than that for 3rd place in L.A 1984 in much worse conditions.

Pete

It was a slower pace, but at the end of the day, the top 3 athletes finished in the medals and all 3 of them could run faster under different conditions

Right now it looks like Galen Rupp is on his way to a medal in the marathon, absolutely sensational if he makes it, but of course also tremendosly suspicious.

2:10:05, nothing out of the ordinary. ranks him at 2,391 in the all time list. Charlie Spedding ran faster than that for 3rd place in L.A 1984 in much worse conditions.

Pete

Hmmm.

Something I have never been able to reconcile with the Marathon is that if they have access to EPO, blood bags and other things we know to work very well in cycling, then why haven't they blown the doors off of 2h?

Dave.

Well they have taken a good chunk of the world record over the last 2 - 3 decades.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

Right now it looks like Galen Rupp is on his way to a medal in the marathon, absolutely sensational if he makes it, but of course also tremendosly suspicious.

2:10:05, nothing out of the ordinary. ranks him at 2,391 in the all time list. Charlie Spedding ran faster than that for 3rd place in L.A 1984 in much worse conditions.

Pete

It was a slower pace, but at the end of the day, the top 3 athletes finished in the medals and all 3 of them could run faster under different conditions

And more importantly Rupp smashed his personal best

 

[roundabout]

Yes, but wasn't Rio his second marathon ever?

 

[PremierAndrew]

Yes, but wasn't Rio his second marathon ever?

Well if that's true then ignore my last post. I know he's not been doing marathon for a long time, so improvements were nothing suspicious. But he absolutely smashed his PB according to one of the commentators, which is what added to the suspicion

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

Right now it looks like Galen Rupp is on his way to a medal in the marathon, absolutely sensational if he makes it, but of course also tremendosly suspicious.

2:10:05, nothing out of the ordinary. ranks him at 2,391 in the all time list. Charlie Spedding ran faster than that for 3rd place in L.A 1984 in much worse conditions.

Pete

Hmmm.

Something I have never been able to reconcile with the Marathon is that if they have access to EPO, blood bags and other things we know to work very well in cycling, then why haven't they blown the doors off of 2h?

Dave.

Good question. There might be physiological limits reached with the present generation of drugs. The programs today are geared around detection avoidance and reliability and not just speed or power output. These variables have added extra complexities into the equation. I suspect in a totally Wild West environment 2 hours is possible.

I recall in the 1970's, F1 driver James Hunt saying that cars were actually faster after the war. What had improved 30 years later was reliability, cornering and safety standards.

 

[roundabout]

I think he improved his PB by something like a minute.

 

[JetSet]

Yes, but wasn't Rio his second marathon ever?

I refer you to the curious case of Ian Thompson. ranked 90th in The U.K at 5k and just considered to be a very good club runner he ran 2:12:40 in his first marathon, apparently his first race over 10 miles, then improved this to 2:09:12 in his second marathon in 1974. Steve Jones, another British runner ran what is still a British record in his third marathon 2:07:13 and his first 2 marathons were both under 2:09. Neither Thompson, Jones Spedding or any of the other half dozen British Athletes who've gone under 2:10 (Mo Excepted) were in the same class as Rupp at 5k or 10k. Let's see what Rupp can do in a big city marathon before we can draw any conclusions.

Pete